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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22549@postgresql.org Wed May 8 11:22:40 2002
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-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 08:35:20 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
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-\r
-Do we want a Win32 native version of PostgreSQL?
-
-The only reasons *not* to use Cygwin is licensing, installation hassles, and
-maybe stability or performance. Therefore, there is no strong technical reason
-to defend its removal, only a philosophical one.
-
-The debates on licensing on this list go on for weeks and people feel
-passionately about the subject. It seems odd that no one speaks out about the
-GNU requirement of cygwin.
-
-If there is a desire to create a PostgreSQL that is "fork" free, then we should
-do it now. If now strong desire exists, then we should make an entry in the FAQ
-and move on.
-
-If we want to be "portable" (and this should help us with a threading model
-later on) we need to cleanup all of the global variables.
-
-PostgreSQL's postmaster should not touch any global variables that are defined
-outside something like a pg_global structure and should not touch any static
-variables at all. If postmaster initializes a variable that will get cloned on
-a fork(), conceptually it is a shared global variable and belongs in
-pg_globals. Going all the way and replacing all globals and statics with a
-struct should allow threading with TLS. (Thread Local Storage)
-
-Port lib. Regardless where it comes from, the porting code should be a self
-contained library, not a list of objects. On Windows, a .DLL can do some things
-easier than an application. Also, having a library allows more flexibility as
-to how a port is designed.
-
-We should spec out our port interface. This includes file, semaphores, shared
-memory, signals/events, process control, IPC, system resources, etc. This will
-grow as we re-port to other environments like Windows.
-
-any comments?
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22551@postgresql.org Wed May 8 11:41:42 2002
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-Message-ID: <3CD93330.2F3541D2@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 10:16:16 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)\r
-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <1782.1020866623@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
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-\r
-Tom Lane wrote:
->
-> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
-> > Port lib. Regardless where it comes from, the porting code should be a
-> > self contained library, not a list of objects. On Windows, a .DLL can
-> > do some things easier than an application. Also, having a library
-> > allows more flexibility as to how a port is designed.
->
-> That may be necessary on Windoze, but on any other platform breaking out
-> an essential part of the backend as a library strikes me as a dead loss.
-> You create extra risk of installation mistakes, can't-find-library
-> startup failures, version mismatch problems, etc, etc --- for zero gain
-> that I can see.
-
-It does not need, and probably should not be by default, a shared library under
-UNIX. A static library is fine. The issue is whether or not it makes sense to
-try and design all porting layers the same, or allow the port engineer the
-flexibility to create what they need the way they need to do it.
-
-A side note:
-The "Windoze" comment says a lot Tom. Believe me, I am currently no fan of
-Windows, but there is something to be said about doing a good job supporting
-such a popular platform, regardless of our personal opinions. When I was
-working at DMN, I had to make sure we could find country music and Brittany
-Spears. Distasteful, but certainly something that needed to be done.
-
-IMHO, I think a great PostgreSQL implementation for Win32 is a nail in the
-coffin for Windows. If we give them a great database, which runs well under
-Windows, for free, MSSQL will now have a serious competitor for the medium to
-small marketplace.
-
-Once MSSQL has viable cross-platform competition in this space, one less
-requirement for Windows will exist. Right now, if you implement on Windows, you
-are most likely going to use MSSQL and be stuck there. With a good Win32
-PostgreSQL, an engineer can implement on PostgreSQL for Windows, and easily
-move it to a "real" environment for stability.
-
-I see it as an important step.
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22561@postgresql.org Wed May 8 15:02:45 2002
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- Wed, 8 May 2002 11:57:11 -0400 (EDT)\r
-To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>\r
-cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy \r
-In-Reply-To: <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org> \r
-References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>\r
-Comments: In-reply-to Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>\r
- message dated "Wed, 08 May 2002 08:37:02 -0700"\r
-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:57:11 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org> writes:
-> 2) If (1) does not exempt the PostgreSQL app from GPL polution, then why
-> not distribute PostgreSQL on Windows using a GPL license?
-
-Given the cygwin licensing terms stated at
- http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
-it appears to me that we need not open that can of worms (and I'd much
-rather not muddy the licensing waters that way, regardless of any
-arguments about whether it would hurt or not...)
-
-As near as I can tell, we *could* develop a self-contained installation
-package for PG+cygwin without any licensing problem. So that set of
-problems could be solved with a reasonable amount of work. I'm still
-unclear on whether there are serious technical problems (performance,
-stability) with using cygwin.
-
-(Actually, even if there are performance or stability problems, an
-easily-installable package would still address the needs of people who
-want to "try it out" or "get their feet wet". And maybe that's all we
-need to do. We always have said that we recommend a Unix platform for
-production-grade PG installations, and IMNSHO that recommendation would
-not change one iota if there were a native rather than cygwin-based
-Windows port. So I'm unconvinced that we have a problem to solve
-anyway...)
-
- regards, tom lane
-
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-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:29:07 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)\r
-X-Accept-Language: en\r
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-To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>\r
-cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org> <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>\r
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-\r
-Thomas Lockhart wrote:
->
-> ...
-> > As near as I can tell, we *could* develop a self-contained installation
-> > package for PG+cygwin without any licensing problem.
->
-> Right. That was my opinion also. But istm that however the discussion
-> settles out, there is a path to success.
-
-These last couple days have really started me thinking about Windows again. I
-developed Windows software for over a decade, geez much longer than that, I
-wrote my first Windows program using the Windows 1.03 SDK. (I am in a 12 step
-program now, but you guys are causing a relapse!)
-
-Listen, here is purely my opinion on the matter, I am speaking from my
-experience as a Windows user, developer, and author (Tricks of the Windows 3.1
-Masters).
-
-It is useless to spend serious time on a cygwin version. Yea, it is cool and
-all, but it won't be used. From the eyes of a Windows user cygwin is a hack and
-a mess. An IT guy that only knows Windows will never use it, and if presented
-with a program that forces a UNIX like directory tree on their hard drive and
-UNIX like tools to manage it, they will delete the program and curse the time
-spent installing it.
-
-Performance may also be an issue, I don't know for sure, but it is suspected.
-The cygwin fork troubles me as well. It may work, but I would not call it a
-"production" technique, how about you? Would you bet your business on cygwin
-and a hacked fork()?
-
-No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
-anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
-welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
-
->From a usefulness perspective, a cygwin version of PostgreSQL will be nothing
-more than a proof of concept, a test bed, or a demo. It will never be used as a
-serious database. How much work does that warrant?
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22576@postgresql.org Wed May 8 17:06:18 2002
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-From: Lamar Owen <lamar.owen@wgcr.org>\r
-To: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:49:39 -0400\r
-User-Agent: KMail/1.4.1\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>\r
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-\r
-On Wednesday 08 May 2002 11:37 am, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
-> 1) cygwin is licensed under GPL. So is GNU/Linux, which provides the
-> same APIs as cygwin does. Linux does not pollute application licenses,
-> presumably because Linux itself is not *required* to run the
-
-The Linux kernel is not under a pure GPL.
-
-COPYING in the kernel source says this, prepended to the GPL:
- NOTE! This copyright does *not* cover user programs that use kernel
- services by normal system calls - this is merely considered normal use
- of the kernel, and does *not* fall under the heading of "derived work".
- Also note that the GPL below is copyrighted by the Free Software
- Foundation, but the instance of code that it refers to (the Linux
- kernel) is copyrighted by me and others who actually wrote it.
-
- Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel
- is concerned is _this_ particular version of the license (ie v2, not
- v2.2 or v3.x or whatever), unless explicitly otherwise stated.
-
- Linus Torvalds
-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-Does cygwin make the same statement?
-
-> 2) If (1) does not exempt the PostgreSQL app from GPL polution, then why
-> not distribute PostgreSQL on Windows using a GPL license?
-
-[snip]
-
-> 3) If (2) is the case, then development could continue under the BSD
-> license, since developers could use the BSD-original code for their
-> development work. So there is no risk of "backflow polution".
-
-Can PostgreSQL, Inc be the GPL distributor for these purposes, being a
-separate entity from the PostgreSQL Global Development Group?
---
-Lamar Owen
-WGCR Internet Radio
-1 Peter 4:11
-
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-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 12:53:57 -0700\r
-From: Paul Ramsey <pramsey@refractions.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Message-ID: <3CD98255.4B52751@refractions.net>\r
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- <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>\r
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-\r
-mlw wrote:
->
-> No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
-> anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
-> welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
-
-Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
-distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
-windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
-cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
-which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
-other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
-your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
-under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
-(pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
-"just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
-expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
-
-Of course, an imaginary beautiful packaging regime hinges on the
-possibility of bundling the cygwin api libraries cleanly without
-bundling all the rest of the cygwin scruft (unix directory heirarchy,
-etc etc). Anyone have any light to shed on cygwin's "packagability"?
-
-P.
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22581@postgresql.org Wed May 8 17:58:25 2002
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-Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:12:17 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-To: Paul Ramsey <pramsey@refractions.net>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-References: <3CD91B88.38CD6C3@mohawksoft.com> <3CD9461E.1FDC6344@fourpalms.org>\r
- <2681.1020873431@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3CD94E04.AF837261@fourpalms.org>\r
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-\r
-Paul Ramsey wrote:
->
-> mlw wrote:
-> >
-> > No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by Windows users as
-> > anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
-> > welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
->
-> Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
-> distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
-> windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
-> cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
-> which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
-> other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
-> your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
-> under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
-> (pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
-> "just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
-> expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
-
-Windows users expect to have C:\my programs\postgres as the install location. A
-person who has used or looked at MSSQL would expect to deal with the real file
-system. The cygwin environment shields the UNIX program from Windows, the
-Windows user would expect the program to deal with the system as is.
-
-The Windows user that would install PostgreSQL would expect it to be a real
-windows program, but would be savvy enough (and prejudiced enough) to know if
-it weren't.
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-From: "Joel Burton" <joel@joelburton.com>\r
-To: "Paul Ramsey" <pramsey@refractions.net>, "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
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-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
-> [mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org]On Behalf Of Paul Ramsey
-> Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 3:54 PM
-> To: mlw
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
->
->
-> mlw wrote:
-> >
-> > No matter what steps you take, cygwin will not be seen by
-> Windows users as
-> > anything but a sloppy/messy/horrible hack. It is a fact of life. You are
-> > welcome to disagree, but I assure you it is true.
->
-> Just to clarify here: is it confirmed that having the complete cygwin
-> distribution is a necessary condition to having a running PostgreSQL on
-> windows? Is it not possible that, having built postgresql with the full
-> cygwin, it would be possible to make a nice clean setup.exe package
-> which bundles the postgresql executables, the required cygwin dlls and
-> other niceties into an easy install package? Given that, I do not think
-> your putative windows user would care at all about what was going on
-> under the covers. As long as the install was clean, there were utilities
-> (pgadmin?) to start working with the database right away, and things
-> "just worked", the ugliness (or exquisite symmetry... I am not an
-> expert) of the fork() implementation really would not be an issue :)
->
-> Of course, an imaginary beautiful packaging regime hinges on the
-> possibility of bundling the cygwin api libraries cleanly without
-> bundling all the rest of the cygwin scruft (unix directory heirarchy,
-> etc etc). Anyone have any light to shed on cygwin's "packagability"?
-
-Certainly, we don't need all of cygwin (eg bison, gcc, perl, et al). We'd
-need the dll, sh, rm, and few other things. I'm not sure if it would need to
-be in the standard cygwin file structure; I know that you can reconfigure
-this when you use cygwin (I used to). In any event, instead of having to
-have a novice pick & guess which of >100 packages they need, we could put
-together the 5 or 6 they need.
-
-I'm not sure I agree entirely with mlw: some Windows admins will be afraid
-of cygwin, but, I'll bet more than a few won't even notice that its being
-used (especially if we can change the dir names, provide windows shortcuts
-to the commands like initdb, create database, pg_ctl, etc., which would be
-trivial to do).
-
-Still unanswered is real data on whether cygwin would be good for serious
-production use by real people. However, for the test/play/try-out model, I
-think cygwin would be a fine solution, and wouldn't (shouldn't?) require too
-much work.
-
-- J.
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22603@postgresql.org Thu May 9 03:24:18 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22603@postgresql.org>\r
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 15:34:06 +0800\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Lee Kindness <lkindness@csl.co.uk>\r
-From: Lincoln Yeoh <lyeoh@pop.jaring.my>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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- <15577.17903.180863.251963@kelvin.csl.co.uk>\r
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-\r
-Who really is your target "market" on the windows platform? Microsoft
-Access users (many)? MySQL users(insignificant?)? MSSQL (many)?
-
-Assuming that the postgresql team isn't getting lots of money or resources
-to do it. I don't see why you would want to invest a lot to support windows
-from a long term point of view. Windows can be a costly platform to support.
-
-Because if you become a serious threat, Microsoft can rip the rug from
-beneath you any chance they get. Also Microsoft WILL always change their
-APIs. They're not stupid. If Microsoft freezes their APIs they will end up
-like "yet another BIOS manufacturer", and bye bye profit margins. Microsoft
-will strive to keep it a proprietary AND changing API.
-
-Windows is rather different operationally. Automating vacuum etc on windows
-is going to be different. Starting postgresql as a service is going to be
-different as well. Same for uninstalling. So support requests are going to
-be different.
-
-If your target market is consumer - Windows consumer users also have
-different expectations. Most will want nicer GUIs (those that don't care
-won't mind running Postgresql elsewhere).
-
-BTW if your target market is a bit higher end - typically those that "must
-use" windows also "must use" MSSQL/Oracle/etc. You will thus have to build
-brand recognition for Postgresql on Windows.
-
-All this will cost you.
-
-That said, is it easier to support only Windows NT/2000 and forget about
-Win9x? The bigger dbs don't support win9x either (how does Oracle/DB2
-support NT? They seem to work ok). Leave MySQL to the Win9x people ;). BTW
-does MySQL really perform OK on Win9x?
-
-Forget the Cygwin approach. Is there really a market for that? Unless
-things have got a lot easier, installing Cygwin is like installing a new
-O/S just to install your app. And installing and learning a new system has
-got to be one of the major barriers, otherwise people will either buy a new
-USD500 1.5+ GHz pc or use VMware+BSD/Linux+Postgresql ;).
-
-Cheerio,
-Link.
-
-At 11:53 AM 5/8/02 -0400, mlw wrote:
->writing software for over 20 years now, and sometimes you just have to hold
->your nose. It would be nice if we could code what we want, the way we want, in
->the language we want, on the platforms we want.
->
->Windows represents a HUGE user base, it also represents a platform for which a
->real good native PostgreSQL should do well. There are, to my knowledge, no
->good
->and free databases available for Windows.
->
->PostgreSQL on Windows could be very cool as a serious poster child for why
->open-source is the way to go.
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22605@postgresql.org Thu May 9 03:42:59 2002
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-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy\r
-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 08:42:18 +0100\r
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-From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-To: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>,\r
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-\r
-
-
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Dann Corbit [mailto:DCorbit@connx.com]
-> Sent: 09 May 2002 00:31
-> To: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Path to PostgreSQL portabiliy
->
->
-> If you have a Win32 workstation...
-> Look here:
-> http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/
->
-> Then click on the thing that says "Install Now" (Looks like a
-> black "C" with a green tongue).
->
-> after a small boatload of clicks, you will see a Window
-> labeled "Cygwin Setup". Under +All you will find...
-> +Admin
-> +Archive
-> +Base
-> +Database
->
-> Click on the plus sign next to the Database category.
->
-> You will see:
-> 7.2.1-1 [options] [Bin] [Src] [Package] posgresql:
-> PostgreSQL Data Base Management System
->
-> In other words, they already have an automated installation
-> procedure for PostgreSQL if you are using Cygwin.
-
-The last time I tried that (coupla months ago) it listed the versions of
-the packages in reverse order, so I spent about 15 very tedious minutes
-making sure that I have the latest version of all the packages I wanted
-selected.
-
-Then I spent an hour or 2 battling with ntsec and initdb on my laptop
-(logged onto, but disconnected from the domain). After that I gave up
-and went back to my very old release that works fine.
-
-The point I'm trying to make is that if I, as a not inexperienced
-sysadmin of both Windows and Unix systems (not to mention PostgreSQL
-which I like to think I'm fairly familiar with) has this trouble, what
-impression is that going to give the first time user, who's probably
-going to go elsewhere at the first sign of trouble?
-
-Regards, Dave.
-
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-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\r
-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Jan Wieck wrote:
->
-> Tom Lane wrote:
-> > "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org> writes:
-> > > On Tue, 7 May 2002, Tom Lane wrote:
-> > >> It'd be worth trying to understand cygwin issues in detail before we
-> > >> sign up to do and support a native Windows port.
-> >
-> > > Actually, there are licensing issues involved ... we could never put a
-> > > 'windows binary' up for anon-ftp, since to distribute it would require the
-> > > cygwin.dll to be distributed, and to do that, there is a licensing cost
-> > > ... of course, I guess we could require ppl to download cygwin seperately,
-> > > install that, then install the binary over top of that ...
-> >
-> > <<itch>> And how much development time are we supposed to expend to
-> > avoid that?
-> >
-> > Give me a technical case for avoiding Cygwin, and maybe I can get
-> > excited about it. I'm not planning to lift a finger on the basis
-> > of licensing though... after all, Windows users are accustomed to
-> > paying for software, no?
->
-> Nobody asked you to lift any of your fingers. A few people
-> (including me) just see value in a native Windows port,
-> kicking out the Cygwin requirement.
->
-> I have the impression you never did use Cygwin. I did, thanks
-> but no thanks.
-
-I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
-ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools. From a
-production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their data to
-PostgreSQL running on cygwin? Think about it, if you wouldn't, why would anyone
-else.
-
-I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting opinions, that if
-you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then we should write a real Win32
-version.
-
-If the global/static variables which are initialized by the postmaster are
-moved to a structure, we can should be able to remove the fork() requirement
-and port to a Win32 native system.
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22630@postgresql.org Thu May 9 10:37:12 2002
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-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application? \r
-In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> \r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Comments: In-reply-to mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
- message dated "Thu, 09 May 2002 10:05:03 -0400"\r
-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:25:43 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
-> I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
-> ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
-
-With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
-cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
-point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
-and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
-work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
-
-Rather than expending largely-pointless work on internal rewrites of
-the server, people who care about this issue ought to be thinking about
-the GUI problems.
-
-> From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
-> data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
-
-I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
-Period. The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
-when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
-contributes any major degree of instability.
-
-I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
-and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
-performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
-someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22634@postgresql.org Thu May 9 11:12:12 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22634@postgresql.org>\r
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:55:01 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)\r
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-To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
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-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\r
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-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Tom Lane wrote:
-> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
-> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
-> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
-> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
-> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
-
-Can a cygwin version of PostgreSQL see the native file system, like: C:\My
-Database, D:\postgres?
-
-> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
-> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
->
-> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
-
-That is a prejudice that is affecting your judgment. Many people do trust
-Windows, do I? No, but a lot of people do. People have trusted their businesses
-on Windows NT/2K/XP, many are still doing so. We want these people to use
-PostgreSQL, so when they see the error in their ways, they have a way out.
-
-
-> The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
-> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
-> contributes any major degree of instability.
-
->From a software development standpoint, I am VERY uncomfortable with the
-technique of a user space program copying its writeable memory to another
-process's. It may work until Microsoft changes something with the next version
-of IE. What about anti-virus software, cygwin has problems with them, and you
-have to have anti-virus software on Windows.
-
-On top of that, the time spent copying the whole process is too long, and it
-forces real memory to be allocated and initialized at process startup.
-
-So, the cygwin fork() will cause PostgreSQL to be slower and use more memory
-than a native version, and will not co-exist well with anti-virus software.
-
->
-> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
-> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
-> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
-> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
-
-Maybe is is playing "Microsoft's Game" but the end result will be a program
-that can seriously compete with MSSQL on Windows, and provide a REAL migration
-path to UNIX.
-
-Many developers use MSSQL because they "have it" in MSDN, so to them, it is
-free. Once they develop something using it, they are tied to Windows. When it
-comes time to deploy their pet project, the company has to cough up the price
-of the server.
-
-A native, friendly, Win32 PostgreSQL that works the same on Windows as it does
-on FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris, etc. Will offer the developer real options away
-from Windows.
-
-Also: I don't think it needs to be a major rewrite, no strategy needs to
-change, it is basically renaming variables, i.e. my_global_var becomes
-pg_globals.my_global_var.
-
-Once that is done, a port writer can do what ever they need to do to get that
-structure to the child correctly. As an exercise, I bet if we did this, we
-would find bugs which are lurking, as yet unfound.
-
-Besides, the discipline of using a globals structure will improve the code
-base. Don't you agree?
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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-message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22635@postgresql.org Thu May 9 11:26:08 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22635@postgresql.org>\r
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 08:13:17 -0700\r
-From: Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>\r
-Organization: Yes\r
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-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: Lee Kindness <lkindness@csl.co.uk>, Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,\r
- Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-References: <29206.1020833367@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
- <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <15578.33799.700751.945380@kelvin.csl.co.uk> <3CDA866D.25E7FADF@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-\r
-...
-> PostgreSQL's feature set and price ($0), with a good installer, would do VERY
-> well.
-
-That may be (I'd like to think so!).
-
-We've identified at least a couple of barriers to folks running
-PostgreSQL on Windows. The installer and GUI issue needs to be solved no
-matter what, and we *could* have a version running on Windows with just
-those things in place.
-
-imho if we are going down the path, we need to take the first steps. And
-those do *not* require code rewrites to do so (or at least don't appear
-to).
-
-If we had a package available for Windows -- with some developers such
-as yourself supporting it -- then we could talk about putting more
-resources into supporting that platform better. But the perception of at
-least some of the key developers (including myself) is that *if* we did
-the code rewrite, and *if* we spent the effort to end up as a native on
-Windows, then we *very well might* be an unreliable database on an
-unreliable platform.
-
-istm that getting a well packaged system running now, then being able to
-identify *only cygwin* as the barrier to better reliability would get
-more support for changes in the backend code.
-
-And if we were working toward some ability to do threading anyway (I
-don't see that in the near future, but we've talked in the past about
-structuring the query engine around "tuple sources" which could then be
-distributed across threads or across machines) then maybe the next step
-is easier.
-
-My 2c...
-
- - Thomas
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
-
-http://archives.postgresql.org
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22644@postgresql.org Thu May 9 12:57:33 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22644@postgresql.org>\r
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- Thu, 9 May 2002 12:37:16 -0400\r
-From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-Message-ID: <200205091637.g49GbGx01621@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> from mlw at "May 9, 2002 10:05:03\r
- am"\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:37:16 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-mlw wrote:
-> I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting opinions, that if
-> you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then we should write a real Win32
-> version.
->
-> If the global/static variables which are initialized by the postmaster are
-> moved to a structure, we can should be able to remove the fork() requirement
-> and port to a Win32 native system.
-
- My opinion here is that until May 1998 Postgres did exec(),
- so it was clean and okay for CreateProcess() up to then. Just
- because we optimized it for the copy-on-write behaviour,
- modern Unix kernels do with fork() only, is NO reason to
- accept sloppy coding. The Postmaster and the backend have
- different responsibilities. In fact, I still consider them
- beeing different programs even if they reside in one
- executable. Mixing global variables of one with the other is
- wrong.
-
-
-Jan
-
---
-
-#======================================================================#
-# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
-# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
-#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
-
-
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22662@postgresql.org Thu May 9 14:47:23 2002
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 14:23:02 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-To: cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <20020509170233.2DC5A38CB3@cbbrowne.com> <3CDAB0B3.C7375A12@mohawksoft.com> <20020509174604.89E5938D1A@cbbrowne.com>\r
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-\r
-cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com wrote:
->
-> > cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com wrote:
-> >>> I think, and I know people are probably sick of me spouting
-> >>> opinions, that if you want a Windows presence for PostgreSQL, then
-> >>> we should write a real Win32 version.
-> >>
-> >> The crucial wrong word is the word "we."
->
-> >> If _you_ want a Windows presence, then _you_ should write a real
-> >> Win32 version. That clearly attaches responsibility to someone who
-> >> is interested.
->
-> > I have already said that I am willing to write the pieces for a
-> > Windows port. The issue is changes in PostgreSQL required to do it.
->
-> No, I don't think you understand.
->
-> If you're planning to do a port, then _all_ changes are your
-> responsibility. Nobody ought to need to change PostgreSQL in order for
-> you to write a Windows port; that, in fact, would be a waste of time,
-> having several people working on something that should probably be done
-> by one person.
-
-Without buy-in from the group, there is no point in me wasting my time doing
-all the work necessary. I'm not interested in making Mark's special version of
-PostgreSQL.
-
-If we can agree on a strategy and a course, then it is worth doing. If all the
-changes made fall on the floor because the group does not like them, then I
-wasted my time. Got it?
-
-Also, doing the Windows portions of the code will represent a significant
-investment of my time. I'm not interested in doing a lot of work on a shoddy
-project. If you ask the core group to put out a crappy version of PostgreSQL
-for a UNIX, they would fight long and hard against it. Why should we be willing
-to produce a crappy version for Windows, just because the people here don't
-like Windows.
-
-I don't care about Solaris, but I understand WHY it is important to make
-PostgreSQL work well on it. I don't understand why the people in this group
-don't see the same purpose for a Windows port. To be honest, I think a good
-Windows port will do wonders for PostgreSQL's acceptance.
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-
-http://archives.postgresql.org
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22680@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:57:11 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22680@postgresql.org>\r
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- Fri, 10 May 2002 00:53:28 +0500\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application?\r
-From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>\r
-To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-In-Reply-To: <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
- <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain\r
-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\r
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-Date: 10 May 2002 00:53:27 +0500\r
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-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 19:25, Tom Lane wrote:
-> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
-> > I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows user will
-> > ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
->
-> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
-> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
-> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
-> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
-> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
-
-<evil grin>
-We can go the Oracle way and write a 200MB cross-platform java installer
-requiring and exact version of java runtime
-</evil grin>
-
-> Rather than expending largely-pointless work on internal rewrites of
-> the server, people who care about this issue ought to be thinking about
-> the GUI problems.
-
-pgAccess is quite nice (Disclaimer: I'm not a windows weenie, I run it
-inside vmware/win98 IE browser test environment on my Linux workstation
-;).
-
-Why not just bundle what we've got ?
-
-> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
-> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
->
-> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
-> Period.
-
-Do we support Xenix and SCO ?
-
-> The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
-> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
-> contributes any major degree of instability.
-
->From the comments here it seems to be either cygwin or more likely
-cygipc
-
-> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
-> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
-> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
-> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
-
-Not!
-
-I think that this thread is mostly about coordinating code and interface
-cleanups that are likely beneficial for both *NIX and non-*NIX platforms
-mainly
- * cleaner support for semaphores
- * separating shared and per-process data
- * process creation
- * (file operations)
- * (init and service scripts)
-if done properly none of these will degrade code quality nor
-performance.
-
-Also, having a clean interface for those will not only enable any
-interested party to make windows/BeOS/OSX/QNX binaries with less effort,
-it will most likely make it easier make use of advances in *NIX world
-like AIO, multiprocessor systems, NUMA and distributed systems, and just
-make things more robust and reliable by making code inspection easier.
-
----------------
-Hannu
-
-
-
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-
-http://archives.postgresql.org
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22694@postgresql.org Thu May 9 21:02:16 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22694@postgresql.org>\r
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-Message-ID: <00f701c1f7bd$ffdeddc0$8500005a@egutierrez>\r
-Reply-To: "Ernesto Gutierrez" <egutierrez@eldergriffon.org>\r
-From: "Ernesto Gutierrez" <egutierrez@eldergriffon.org>\r
-To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>, "Tom Lane" <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-cc: "Jan Wieck" <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200205091344.g49DiBp01273@saturn.janwieck.net> <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com> <19330.1020954343@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] How much work is a native Windows application? \r
-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 17:59:55 -0700\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
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-\r
-Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:
-
-> mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> writes:
-> > I have used the cygwin version too. It is a waste of time. No Windows
-user will
-> > ever accept it. No windows-only user is going to use the cygwin tools.
->
-> With decent packaging, no windows-only user would even know we have
-> cygwin in there. The above argument is just plain irrelevant. The real
-> point is that we need a nice clean friendly GUI for both installation
-> and administration --- and AFAICS that will take about the same amount of
-> work to write whether the server requires cygwin internally or not.
-
-I'm afraid I agree with mlw, Tom. I don't think the problem ends at the GUI,
-although for many people it would. The issue extends at least also to
-support and troubleshooting. In a production environment, I have a better
-chance of figuring out what's going wrong with an application written
-natively for an operating system dealing directly with that operating
-system. I would take a dim view of using PostgreSQL running on cygwin unless
-I had extensive experience doing it, or if there were no other alternative.
-
-> > From a production stand point, would anyone reading this trust their
-> > data to PostgreSQL running on cygwin?
->
-> I wouldn't trust my data to *any* database running on a Microsoft OS.
-> Period. The above argument thus doesn't impress me at all, especially
-> when it's being made without offering a shred of evidence that cygwin
-> contributes any major degree of instability.
-
-If you could prove to me that cygwin doesn't contribute *any* instability,
-I'd still be pretty worried, probably for the same reasons that you don't
-trust any Microsoft OS. There are increased chances that something could go
-critically wrong, particularly in an environment fundamentally different. I
-think mlw's basic point is quite valid, that PG+cygwin will not ever find
-favor with decision-makers who are used to Windows systems. Suspicion of
-the other environment's foibles is common, and goes both ways.
-
-> I am especially unhappy about the prospect of major code revisions
-> and development time spent on chasing this rather than improving our
-> performance and stability on Unix-type OSes. I agree with the comment
-> someone else made: that's just playing Microsoft's game.
-
-There I don't deny you may be right.
-
-Ernie Gutierrez
-Walnut Creek, CA
-
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22642@postgresql.org Thu May 9 12:49:06 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22642@postgresql.org>\r
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- Thu, 9 May 2002 09:16:35 -0700\r
-Message-ID: <3CDAA0E3.5060706@xythos.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 09:16:35 -0700\r
-From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>\r
-User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417\r
-X-Accept-Language: en-us, en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-cc: "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk>,\r
- Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>, Joel Burton <joel@joelburton.com>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG+Cygwin Production Experience (was RE: Path to PostgreSQL\r
-References: <E2870D8CE1CCD311BAF50008C71EDE8E01F74896@MAIL_EXCHANGE> <19035.1020952312@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-I have found this whole thread very interesting (I'm still not sure
-where it is going though :-). But let me throw in some of my thoughts.
-
-A windows version of postgres (whether native of cygwin based) is
-important. I have many developers with windows as their desktop OS and
-they have a postgres db installed to do development work. Postgres on
-cygwin is fine for this need. While I may not trust it in a production
-environment it is certainly good enough for development.
-
-A second use we have for postgres on windows is in evals of our product.
- We provide an eval version of our software as an InstallShield
-installed .exe that includes our code, postgres and the necessary cygwin
-parts. People doing evals just want to install the eval on their
-everyday machine (most likely running windows) and it needs to be dead
-simple to install. This can be done with postgres and cygwin. In this
-example again the current postgres+cygwin works well enough for our
-evals. Again I wouldn't run the production version in this environment,
-but it is good enough for an eval.
-
-Our eval does show that it is possible to repackage postgres plus the
-parts of cygwin it needs into a nice installer and have it work. (It is
-a lot of work but is certainly possible). In fact in our eval install
-we even use cygrunsrv to install postgres as a windows service.
-
-The biggest problem we have had is the fact that the utility scripts
-(like pg_ctl, createdb, etc) are all shell scripts that call a whole
-host of other utilities. It is pretty straight forward to package up
-the postgres executable and the libraries it needs from cygwin. It is a
-whole different problem making sure you have a standard unix style shell
-environment with all the utilities installed so that you can run the
-shell scripts.
-
-thanks,
---Barry
-
-Tom Lane wrote:
-> "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk> writes:
->
->>Cygwin is not the only additon needed, cygipc will also be needed (GPL)
->>(see: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/users/cwilson/cygutils/cygipc/index.html )
->
->
-> Good point, but is this a requirement that we could get rid of, now that
-> we have the SysV IPC stuff somewhat isolated? AFAICT cygipc provides
-> the SysV IPC API (shmget, semget, etc) --- but if there are usable
-> equivalents in the basic Cygwin environment, we could probably use them
-> now.
->
-> Considering how often we see the forgot-to-start-cygipc mistake,
-> removing this requirement would be a clear win.
->
-> regards, tom lane
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
-> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
-> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
->
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22665@postgresql.org Thu May 9 15:30:11 2002
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-Message-ID: <200205091920.g49JKN402145@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG+Cygwin Production Experience (was RE: Path to PostgreSQL\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CDAA0E3.5060706@xythos.com> from Barry Lind at "May 9, 2002 09:16:35\r
- am"\r
-To: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:20:23 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk>,\r
- Thomas Lockhart <lockhart@fourpalms.org>, mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>, Joel Burton <joel@joelburton.com>\r
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-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Barry Lind wrote:
-> I have found this whole thread very interesting (I'm still not sure
-> where it is going though :-). But let me throw in some of my thoughts.
->
-> A windows version of postgres (whether native of cygwin based) is
-> important. I have many developers with windows as their desktop OS and
-> they have a postgres db installed to do development work. Postgres on
-> cygwin is fine for this need. While I may not trust it in a production
-> environment it is certainly good enough for development.
->
-> A second use we have for postgres on windows is in evals of our product.
-> We provide an eval version of our software as an InstallShield
-> installed .exe that includes our code, postgres and the necessary cygwin
-> parts. People doing evals just want to install the eval on their
-> everyday machine (most likely running windows) and it needs to be dead
-> simple to install. This can be done with postgres and cygwin. In this
-> example again the current postgres+cygwin works well enough for our
-> evals. Again I wouldn't run the production version in this environment,
-> but it is good enough for an eval.
->
-> Our eval does show that it is possible to repackage postgres plus the
-> parts of cygwin it needs into a nice installer and have it work. (It is
-> a lot of work but is certainly possible). In fact in our eval install
-> we even use cygrunsrv to install postgres as a windows service.
->
-> The biggest problem we have had is the fact that the utility scripts
-> (like pg_ctl, createdb, etc) are all shell scripts that call a whole
-> host of other utilities. It is pretty straight forward to package up
-> the postgres executable and the libraries it needs from cygwin. It is a
-> whole different problem making sure you have a standard unix style shell
-> environment with all the utilities installed so that you can run the
-> shell scripts.
-
- Do I read this right? You wrap the binary eval version of
- your product, the binary PostgreSQL and CygWin including some
- of the utility programs into one InstallShield .exe and ship
- that?
-
- Hmmm, PostgreSQL's license is totally fine with that. And
- your program is your program. But as far as I know bundling
- with CygWin like this costs money. So you pay license fees to
- RedHat for shipping eval copies of your product and don't see
- any value in a native Windows port? Nobel, nobel, or does
- your product have such an outstanding eval/sell ratio that it
- doesn't matter?
-
-
-Jan
-
->
-> thanks,
-> --Barry
->
-> Tom Lane wrote:
-> > "Henshall, Stuart - WCP" <SHenshall@westcountrypublications.co.uk> writes:
-> >
-> >>Cygwin is not the only additon needed, cygipc will also be needed (GPL)
-> >>(see: http://www.neuro.gatech.edu/users/cwilson/cygutils/cygipc/index.html )
-> >
-> >
-> > Good point, but is this a requirement that we could get rid of, now that
-> > we have the SysV IPC stuff somewhat isolated? AFAICT cygipc provides
-> > the SysV IPC API (shmget, semget, etc) --- but if there are usable
-> > equivalents in the basic Cygwin environment, we could probably use them
-> > now.
-> >
-> > Considering how often we see the forgot-to-start-cygipc mistake,
-> > removing this requirement would be a clear win.
-> >
-> > regards, tom lane
-> >
-> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
-> > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
-> > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
-> >
->
->
->
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-> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
->
-> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
->
-
-
---
-
-#======================================================================#
-# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
-# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
-#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
-
-
-
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-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 10:34:58 -0600 (MDT)\r
-From: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>\r
-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CDA820F.136D65F5@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-\r
-There are some issues that the whole idea of a win32 port should bring up.
-One of them is whether or not postgresql should be rewritten as a
-multi-threaded app.
-
-If postgresql will never be rewritten as a multi-threaded app, then
-performance under Windows is likely to ALWAYS be slow, since that
-multi-thread is the preferred model for good performance on W32. note
-that many Unixes prefer multi-threaded models as well (Solaris comes to
-mind) so there's the possibility that a multi-threaded postgresql could
-enjoy better performance on more than just windows.
-
-If postgresql IS going to eventually be multi-threaded, then the whole
-win32 port should probably be delayed until then, since it would solve
-many of the issues of fork() versus createprocess().
-
-Just my thoughts on it.
-
-Scott
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22660@postgresql.org Thu May 9 14:31:54 2002
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-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 12:13:59 -0600 (MDT)\r
-From: Scott Marlowe <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>\r
-To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-In-Reply-To: <200205091751.g49HpTi01846@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205091207540.3940-100000@css120.ihs.com>\r
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-\r
-On Thu, 9 May 2002, Jan Wieck wrote:
-
-> > If postgresql IS going to eventually be multi-threaded, then the whole
-> > win32 port should probably be delayed until then, since it would solve
-> > many of the issues of fork() versus createprocess().
->
-> If multi-threading is the plan, then there is light at the
-> end of the tunnel ... the upcoming train...
-
-That's a bit extreme don't you think? I'm not fan of multi-threading as
-the one true way, and since I use linux as my server for postgresql, there
-is no gain for me in a multi-threaded model. In fact, I'd prefer
-postgresql stay multi-process for robustness.
-
-BUT, if there are plans to go multi-thread, or could be plans, then those
-should take priority over how to port to windows, since making postgresql
-multi-threaded will change it so much as to make the current "how do we
-port to windows" thread meaningless.
-
-One of the primary reasons given for avoiding cygwin is that postgresql
-runs so slowly under it on windows, but I submit that it probably won't
-run a heck of a lot faster if it was written as a native app as long as
-it's running as a multi-process design. Since there's probably no great
-gain to be had from moving it out from under cygwin, why bother?
-
-My vote would be to stay multi-process and Unix compatible. I have no
-real use for windows as a server, and do NOT want to sacrifice the
-performance / reliability I have with postgresql under Linux for a windows
-port.
-
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22683@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:20:10 2002
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- Fri, 10 May 2002 01:15:06 +0500\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>\r
-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
- <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
- <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-\r
-On Fri, 2002-05-10 at 02:33, Dann Corbit wrote:
->
-> It took a few hundred man hours to do it.
-
-About 2-8 weeks for one full time programmer ?
-
-> I see the whole Win32 port as
-> a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
-> place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
-> parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
-> else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
-> either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
-> large enough. Ergo...
-
-Do you know which of these run ((reasonably) well) on win9x ?
-
-> Here are some other things related:
->
-> A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
-> http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
-
-Perhaps we should back up and let dbexperts et.al. recover their costs
-and after that repent and commit changes back to main tree ;)
-
-## insert a little ad-hominem attack to everyone objecting a native
-## win32 port as owning stock in some win32-pg-selling company
-
-BTW, do they have an evaluation version or do they think that people
-would in that case evaluate on win32 and then buy a cheap linux box for
-$495.- :)
-
---------------------
-Hannu
-
-
-
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-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
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-Thread-Topic: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-Thread-Index: AcH3nsEyepyPj/gRTNiZtJugpq+PAQAAduvQ\r
-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
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-\r
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Hannu Krosing [mailto:hannu@tm.ee]
-> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 12:10 PM
-> To: Jan Wieck
-> Cc: Scott Marlowe; PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support
->
->
-> On Thu, 2002-05-09 at 22:51, Jan Wieck wrote:
-> > Scott Marlowe wrote:
-> > > There are some issues that the whole idea of a win32 port
-> should bring up.
-> > > One of them is whether or not postgresql should be rewritten as a
-> > > multi-threaded app.
-> >
-> > Please, don't add this one to it.
-> >
-> > I'm all for the native Windows port, yes, but I've discussed
-> > the multi-thread questions for days at Great Bridge, then
-> > again with my new employer, with people on shows and whatnot.
-> >
-> > Anything in the whole backend is designed with a multi-
-> > process model in mind. You'll not do that in any reasonable
-> > amount of time.
->
-> IIRC you are replying to the man who _has_ actually don this ?
->
-> Perhaps using an unreasonable amount of time but still ... :)
-
-It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole Win32 port as
-a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
-place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
-parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
-else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
-either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
-large enough. Ergo...
-
-Here are some other things related:
-
-A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
-http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
-
-An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows (has gone
-nowhere so far):
-http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
-
-A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
-http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
-tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22677@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:48:03 2002
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:41:29 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE10@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-\r
-Dann Corbit wrote:
-> It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole Win32 port as
-> a non issue. Several parties have already completed it (including the
-> place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not do it or all
-> parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
-> else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
-> either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it. The need is
-> large enough. Ergo...
->
-> Here are some other things related:
->
-> A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
-> http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
->
-> An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows (has gone
-> nowhere so far):
-> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
->
-> A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
-> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-> If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
-> tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
-
-These packages are based upon cygwin. Problems with cygwin:
-
-(1) GNU license issues.
-(2) Does not work well with anti-virus software
-(3) Since OS level copy-on-write is negated, process creation is much slower.
-(4) Since OS level copy on write is negated, memory that otherwise would not be
-allocated to the process is forced to ba allocated when the parent process data
-is copied.
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22679@postgresql.org Thu May 9 17:53:53 2002
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-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
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-\r
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
-> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:41 PM
-> To: Dann Corbit
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
->
->
-> Dann Corbit wrote:
-> > It took a few hundred man hours to do it. I see the whole
-> Win32 port as
-> > a non issue. Several parties have already completed it
-> (including the
-> > place where I work -- CONNX Solutions Inc.). If we did not
-> do it or all
-> > parties who already did it were hit by a comet or something, someone
-> > else would accomplish it. It isn't trivial but it isn't impossible
-> > either. If a need is large enough, someone will manage it.
-> The need is
-> > large enough. Ergo...
-> >
-> > Here are some other things related:
-> >
-> > A ready to go Win32 PosgreSQL package:
-> > http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
-> >
-> > An open source project to productize PostgreSQL for Windows
-> (has gone
-> > nowhere so far):
-> > http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
-> >
-> > A native Win32 port accomplished by a Japanese Group:
-> > http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-> > If you look under the "Gists for Patch" it contains exactly the same
-> > tasks that CONNX Solutions Inc. had to accomplish in every case.
->
-> These packages are based upon cygwin. Problems with cygwin:
->
-> (1) GNU license issues.
-> (2) Does not work well with anti-virus software
-> (3) Since OS level copy-on-write is negated, process creation
-> is much slower.
-> (4) Since OS level copy on write is negated, memory that
-> otherwise would not be
-> allocated to the process is forced to ba allocated when the
-> parent process data
-> is copied.
-
-Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own POSIX layer from
-scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and inserted copious:
-#ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
-/* our code goes here */
-#else
-/* Standard UNIX code goes here */
-#endif
-
-It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue blazes. We have
-run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with success. However,
-before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite with tens of
-thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
-June at the earliest.
-
-I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I have not tried
-installing it yet).
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22681@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:02:06 2002
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-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 17:56:01 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-X-Accept-Language: en\r
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-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE12@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-Dann Corbit wrote:
-> Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own POSIX layer from
-> scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and inserted copious:
-> #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
-> /* our code goes here */
-> #else
-> /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
-> #endif
-
-OK, what sorts of things did you do in your ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
-migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or a stand-alone?
-
-I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained ignorant of PostgreSQL
-internals.
-
->
-> It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue blazes. We have
-> run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with success. However,
-> before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite with tens of
-> thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
-> June at the earliest.
->
-> I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I have not tried
-> installing it yet).
-
-The japanese site claims cygwin.
-
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-Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support\r
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-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
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-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
-> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:56 PM
-> To: Dann Corbit
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
->
->
-> Dann Corbit wrote:
-> > Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own
-> POSIX layer from
-> > scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and
-> inserted copious:
-> > #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
-> > /* our code goes here */
-> > #else
-> > /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
-> > #endif
->
-> OK, what sorts of things did you do in your
-> ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
-> migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or
-> a stand-alone?
-
-I explained it in another mail.
-
-We had quite a few changes we had to make (several hundred man-hours,
-about half of which was the POSIX layer and the precise time routines).
-
-No sense trying to simulate fork() -- it stinks on Win32. The Cygwin
-and PW32 implementations of fork() are dogs. Smarter folks than us
-tried it and failed miserably. Why reinvent a broken wheel? We use
-create process and our own startup code. Our version is competitive
-with fork() on Linux for spawning tasks and in general the queries run
-considerably faster.
-
-> I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained
-> ignorant of PostgreSQL
-> internals.
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
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-\r
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
-> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 2:56 PM
-> To: Dann Corbit
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
->
->
-> Dann Corbit wrote:
-> > Our package avoids Cygwin altogether. We wrote our own
-> POSIX layer from
-> > scratch, and we junked fork() for CreateProcess() {and
-> inserted copious:
-> > #ifdef ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE
-> > /* our code goes here */
-> > #else
-> > /* Standard UNIX code goes here */
-> > #endif
->
-> OK, what sorts of things did you do in your
-> ICKY_WIN32_KLUDGE? Were they ever
-> migrated back into the main tree? Did you simulate fork() or
-> a stand-alone?
->
-> I know Windows very well, but I have thus far remained
-> ignorant of PostgreSQL
-> internals.
->
-> >
-> > It's complete, and it performs like the burning blue
-> blazes. We have
-> > run the full PostgreSQL test suite to completion with
-> success. However,
-> > before we release any SQL tool, we have our own test suite
-> with tens of
-> > thousands of tests to perform. Hence, we won't have a release until
-> > June at the earliest.
-> >
-> > I think the Japanese one also does not use Cygwin (but I
-> have not tried
-> > installing it yet).
->
-> The japanese site claims cygwin.
-
-This is not correct. (Fortunately, we have someone here who reads and
-writes Japanese).
-At any rate, it is a complete, native implementation of PostgreSQL
-without any need for Cygwin.
-Just to be sure, I did a "depends" on each of the binaries and none of
-them use Cywin.
-
-So the Japanese site did exactly the same thing that we did.
-
-Here are bitmaps showing the complete dependency trees of both the
-Japanese efforts and ours as well:
-Us:
-ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/chess-engines/new-approach/connx.bmp
-
-Japanese:
-ftp://cap.connx.com/pub/chess-engines/new-approach/japanese.bmp
-
-No Cygwin in sight in either case.
-
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22685@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:39:40 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22685@postgresql.org>\r
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- by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49MXot30610;\r
- Thu, 9 May 2002 18:33:50 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <3CDAF94E.2F60382E@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 18:33:50 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)\r
-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F443@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-\r
-Dann Corbit wrote:
-http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-
-Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
-
-Does not matter, the issue is that you guys said you did it. OK, have you been
-able to bring the changed back into the main source tree? (Are you not trying?)
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22686@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:46:24 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22686@postgresql.org>\r
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-Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 15:43:47 -0700\r
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-Thread-Topic: Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-Thread-Index: AcH3ql/GnGAJD4NhSHug0+KSRuGWRAAAAz7Q\r
-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-To: "mlw" <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mlw [mailto:markw@mohawksoft.com]
-> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2002 3:34 PM
-> To: Dann Corbit
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Issues tangential to win32 support
->
->
-> Dann Corbit wrote:
-> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
->
-> Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
->
-> Does not matter, the issue is that you guys said you did it.
-> OK, have you been
-> able to bring the changed back into the main source tree?
-> (Are you not trying?)
-
-I am not enrolled in the CVS project, and don't even know how to use it.
-We use "Visual Source Safe" here -- really an icky tool but at least
-everyone here knows it.
-
-There is some debate here as to whether to keep the changes private or
-to turn them back to the project. Not sure how it will turn out.
-
-I am not sure that the project would want them anyway, since the
-represent some pretty major surgery and impact the readability of the
-code in a quite adverse way.
-
-At any rate, the Japanese version appears to be released. In fact, I
-have downloaded the whole project and gave it a spin. It is actually
-very nice. If you just need to use something for right now, why not go
-with that version?
-
-In any case, there is simply no way possible that anything will ever
-escape from here before June at the absolute earliest (full regression
-test is company policy).
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22687@postgresql.org Thu May 9 18:57:40 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22687@postgresql.org>\r
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- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g49Mve428946\r
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- by snoopy.mohawksoft.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g49MpWt30673;\r
- Thu, 9 May 2002 18:51:36 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <3CDAFD74.177491F2@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 18:51:32 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-SMP-020426 i686)\r
-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Issues tangential to win32 support\r
-References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CE16@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\r
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-\r
-Dann Corbit wrote:
-> I am not enrolled in the CVS project, and don't even know how to use it.
-> We use "Visual Source Safe" here -- really an icky tool but at least
-> everyone here knows it.
-
-Source Safe? Yikes. I haven't used that in a long time.
-
->
-> There is some debate here as to whether to keep the changes private or
-> to turn them back to the project. Not sure how it will turn out.
->
-> I am not sure that the project would want them anyway, since the
-> represent some pretty major surgery and impact the readability of the
-> code in a quite adverse way.
-
-I hear you on that. I have tons of code that has #ifdef GCC and #ifdef WIN32 in
-lots of places.
-
-Obviously you wrap what you can in macros and/or functions, but you can't do
-that 100% the time. Some people REALLY hate #ifdef/#endif and view them as a
-bad coding practice. Others, like myself, view them as a proper usage of the
-language constructs and judicious use of them actually help the developer
-understand the code better.
-
->
-> At any rate, the Japanese version appears to be released. In fact, I
-> have downloaded the whole project and gave it a spin. It is actually
-> very nice. If you just need to use something for right now, why not go
-> with that version?
-
-I have no desire for a Windows version for myself, but I see the need for it.
-
->
-> In any case, there is simply no way possible that anything will ever
-> escape from here before June at the absolute earliest (full regression
-> test is company policy).
-
-ok
-
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-To: markw@mohawksoft.com\r
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-> Dann Corbit wrote:
-> http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
->
-> Mentions cygwin, am I misunderstanding?
-
-Are you talking about following in the page?
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-* Notice: Based upon the GNU-cygwin, there is a version that works
-similar to the Unix-compatible operability. Tanida-san Web site is
-supporting this environment in Japanese.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-
-It cleary refers to another work.
---
-Tatsuo Ishii
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22721@postgresql.org Fri May 10 10:04:20 2002
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- for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 10 May 2002 09:55:50 -0400 (EDT)\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] FW: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions\r
-Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 14:55:53 +0100\r
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-From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-Some comments from Jason Tishler the Cygwin-PostgreSQL maintainer...
-
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Jason Tishler [mailto:jason@tishler.net]
-> Sent: 10 May 2002 15:00
-> To: Dave Page
-> Cc: pgsql-cygwin@postgresql.org
-> Subject: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions
->
->
-> Dave,
->
-> Would you forward this to pgsql-hackers since I'm not subscribed?
->
-> On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 10:45:42PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
-> > > -----Original Message-----
-> > > From: Jason Tishler [mailto:jason@tishler.net]
-> > > Sent: 09 May 2002 21:52
-> > > To: Dave Page
-> > >
-> > > On Thu, May 09, 2002 at 07:51:33PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
-> > > > BTW Are you aware there is currently a rather busy thread
-> > > > about native Windows/Beos ports on -hackers...
-> > >
-> > > No, I'm not subscribed, but I just read all that I could find
-> > > in the archives.
-> > > [snip]
-> > >
-> > > > ...which is currently drifting towards a cutdown Cygwin version?
-> > >
-> > > Maybe I'll be out of (another) job soon? :,)
-> >
-> > [snip]
-> >
-> > Personnally, I think (from a 'good for PostgreSQL' rather
-> than 'good
-> > for Cygwin' perspective) that the way forward is a Cygwin
-> based system
-> > but using a tailored downloader/installer that installs the system
-> > 'like a Windows app' (and quickly & easily etc.) rather than the
-> > current way which is Windows 'being' *nix. I think that's very
-> > offputting for many potential users (as others have said on the
-> > -hackers thread).
->
-> I agree with the above, but more can be done with Cygwin and
-> its setup.exe that can give a fair amount of bang for the
-> buck for some good short time gains too. I will give some
-> details below.
->
-> I also wanted to dispel some misinformation (IMO) that I
-> perceived from the above mentioned posts and/or elaborate on
-> some of the items:
->
-> 1. Cygwin's setup.exe supports categories and dependencies.
-> Hence, there is no reason to install all Cygwin packages in
-> order to ensure properly PostgreSQL operation. Someone just
-> has to determine what is the minimal set of packages
-> necessary for PostgreSQL and I will update the setup.hint
-> accordingly. The current setup.hint is as follows:
->
-> sdesc: "PostgreSQL Data Base Management System"
-> category: Database
-> requires: ash cygwin readline zlib libreadline5
->
-> Sorry, but since I install all Cygwin packages plus about 30
-> additional ones I haven't desire to determine what are the
-> minimal requirements.
->
-> 2. Cygwin's setup.exe is customizable. There is a tool
-> called "upset" that generates the setup.ini file that drives
-> setup.exe. PostgreSQL could offer a customized setup. For
-> example, this is what the XEmacs folks are doing.
->
-> 3. Cygwin's setup.exe can run package specific postinstall
-> scripts during the installation. Hence, someone could
-> automate the steps enumerated (e.g., postmaster NT service
-> installation, initdb, etc.) in my README:
->
-
-http://www.tishler.net/jason/software/postgresql/postgresql-7.2.1.README
-
-to ease the installation burden.
-
-4. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor performance. I have
-never done any benchmarks regarding this issue, but apparently Terry
-Carlin (from the defunct Great Bridge) did:
-
- http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2001-08/msg00029.php
-
-Specifically, he indicates the following:
-
- BTW, Up through 40 users, PostgreSQL under CYGWIN using the TPC-C
- benchmark performed very much the same as Linux PostgreSQL on the
- exact hardware.
-
-5. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor reliability.
-Unfortunately, I have not been able to gather data to concur or refute
-this perception due a sudden job "change" last summer. :,) However,
-there are reports such as the following on the pgsql-cygwin list:
-
- http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2002-04/msg00021.php
-
-IMO, the biggest reliability issue with Cygwin PostgreSQL is it's
-dependency on cygipc. There is some very recent work to create a Cygwin
-daemon to support features such as System V IPC. So soon the cygipc
-dependency and its "problems" will be going way.
-
-Those interested in a "Windows" PostgreSQL should possibly consider
-contributing in this area or other "hard edges" (due to Windows-isms)
-that would improve the reliability of Cygwin PostgreSQL. BTW, I have
-found the Cygwin core developers very responsive to PostgreSQL problems
-because it drives the Cygwin DLL harder than most other applications.
-
-6. Satisfying the Cygwin license for binary distribution is very simple.
-Just include the source for the Cygwin DLL and all executables that are
-linked with it in your distribution package. It is really that easy.
-
-Jason
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22731@postgresql.org Fri May 10 12:36:48 2002
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-To: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, Jason@tishler.net\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] FW: Cygwin PostgreSQL Information and Suggestions \r
-In-Reply-To: <214E9C0A75426D47A876A2FD8A07426E66B4@salem.vale-housing.co.uk> \r
-References: <214E9C0A75426D47A876A2FD8A07426E66B4@salem.vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-Comments: In-reply-to "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
- message dated "Fri, 10 May 2002 14:55:53 +0100"\r
-Date: Fri, 10 May 2002 12:31:06 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <28995.1021048266@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
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-\r
-"Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk> forwards:
-> 4. Cygwin PostgreSQL is perceived to have poor performance. I have
-> never done any benchmarks regarding this issue, but apparently Terry
-> Carlin (from the defunct Great Bridge) did:
-
-> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-cygwin/2001-08/msg00029.php
-
-> Specifically, he indicates the following:
-
-> BTW, Up through 40 users, PostgreSQL under CYGWIN using the TPC-C
-> benchmark performed very much the same as Linux PostgreSQL on the
-> exact hardware.
-
-It should be noted that the benchmark Terry is describing fires up
-N concurrent backends and then measures the runtime for a specific query
-workload. So it's not measuring connection startup time, which is
-alleged by some to be Cygwin's weak spot. Nonetheless, I invite the
-Postgres-on-Cygwin-isn't-worth-our-time camp to produce some benchmarks
-supporting their position. I'm getting tired of reading unsubstantiated
-assertions.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22748@postgresql.org Fri May 10 17:51:28 2002
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- Sat, 11 May 2002 00:48:15 +0500\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?\r
-From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,\r
- Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-On Sat, 2002-05-11 at 02:25, mlw wrote:
-> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin dll. I
-> know and understand there is some disagreement with this position, but in this
-> I'm sure about this.
-
-...
-
-> I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc not to
-> link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line option. This
-> will produce a native windows application. No emulation, just a standard C
-> runtime.
-
-It seems that mingw (http://www.mingw.org/) does exactly this and
-provides needed headers/libs. And they have also non-cycwin minimal
-build environment (MSYS) that supplies make,sh and other stuff we might
-use for running initdb and other shell scripts.
-
-> Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
-> drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
->
-> Unicode may be an issue, I haven't looked at that yet. Is that a must for the
-> initial release?
-
-Probably not.
-
->>
-> A couple simple programs can be written using msvc to monitor, start and stop
-> PostgreSQL. The programs will be simple using the application wizard, just make
-> a small dialog box application.
-
-dev-c++ has also wizards for easy making of trivial user interfaces
-
-http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
-
---------------
-Hannu
-
-
-
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-Subject: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?\r
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-\r
-A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin dll. I
-know and understand there is some disagreement with this position, but in this
-I'm sure about this.
-
-The tools used to create the binary need not be Microsoft, many venders have
-used Borland or Watcom, the run of the mill user/developer does not care. The
-developers who do care won't mind the cygwin development environment as long as
-it produces a native Windows binary that does not play tricks such as fork().
-
-Windows developers don't care too much about source code. The build environment
-will not be a problem.
-
-The issue is that the system must perform well and must be stable. I do not
-believe that cygwin can meet this requirement. Having done some research for
-these discussions, I think we know it has startup performance issues and
-unknown operational issues.
-
-FYI: My PHP project msession, can produce both a Windows version and a Cygwin
-version. It is threaded C++, but I have measured a performance improvements
-using the native Windows version over the cygwin version. I have since
-abandoned the cygwin version.
-
-I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc not to
-link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line option. This
-will produce a native windows application. No emulation, just a standard C
-runtime.
-
-Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
-drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
-
-Unicode may be an issue, I haven't looked at that yet. Is that a must for the
-initial release?
-
-There will be a need for some emulation/api specification of things like
-semaphores, shared memory, file API (I would like to use Windows native
-CreateFile routines, as these should be pretty fast.), and so on.
-
-We will also have to breakup postgres and postmaster, and for the Windows
-version use CreateProcess. There are a number of ways to attack this, globals
-in a structure based in shared memory, globals in a .DLL exported to processes
-and shared, and so on.
-
-I think a huge time savings can be had by avoiding rewriting everything for the
-Microsoft build environment. As far as I know, and please correct me if I'm
-wrong, code produced by the cygwin gcc is freely distributable and need not be
-GPL.
-
-Once we have it working without fork() using the cygwin build environment, we
-will have a native Windows application, we can then further evaluate whether or
-not we want to expend the work to make a MSC version.
-
-Once the backend and most of the tools are built without requiring the
-cygwin.dll, installation is a breeze. Just dump it somewhere and run it.
-
-A couple simple programs can be written using msvc to monitor, start and stop
-PostgreSQL. The programs will be simple using the application wizard, just make
-a small dialog box application.
-
-Pgaccess will provide all the GUI stuff, and we may even be able to wrap the
-monitor code into pgaccess.
-
-The server install can be done with install shield.
-
-There is code that will run any program as an NT service. We can use that for
-server installations. We can use the MSVC wizard application to pop-up in the
-tool bar.
-
-Have I missed anything?
-Is this a realistic and attainable plan?
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22762@postgresql.org Sat May 11 11:30:25 2002
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-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-From: cbbrowne@cbbrowne.com\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this? \r
-In-Reply-To: Message from mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com> \r
- of "Fri, 10 May 2002 17:25:02 EDT." <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com> \r
-References: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com> \r
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-\r
---==_Exmh_-82808586P
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
-
-> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
-> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this
-> position, but in this I'm sure about this.
-
-That may ultimately be desirable.
-
-In the short term, it is likely preferable to use cygwin.
-
-It is only necessary to point at MySQL for an example. Cygwin is used there.
-<http://www.mysql.com/downloads/mysql-3.23.html> It is being used widely,
-"crap" or not.
-
-Cygwin may not ultimately be the ideal thing to use; we don't yet live in
-Pangloss' "Best of All Possible Worlds," and thus have to live with some
-things not being ideal.
-
-If having the installer install Cygwin as well as the DBMS makes it easy to
-have something usable soon, and this allows 100,000 WinFolk to try out
-PostgreSQL, then that's a Big Win. Out of 100K users, surely two or three may
-be attracted into working on a more Panglossian solution.
-
-It may be fair to say that none of those 100K folk would be using PostgreSQL
-to support HA applications involving hundreds of GB of data. That's _fine_.
-
-If there are new 100K folk using PostgreSQL/cygwin, _some_ of them will
-outgrow its capabilities, and come looking for improvements.
-
-And as they're Windows users, accustomed to having to pay hefty amounts to
-Microsoft to get support no better than that provided by the Psychic Friends
-Network (see <http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html>), they'll
-doubtless be prepared to have to pay _something_ in order for
-"PostgreSQL/Win3K-Enterprise Edition" to become available.
-
-That seems a not too unreasonable path towards the "Best of All Possible
-Worlds." There may be a bit of hyperbole in the above, but any time Voltaire
-gets quoted, that's likely to happen :-).
---
-(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn@" "enworbbc"))
-http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html
-Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-
---
-(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@ntlug.org")
-http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
-It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by the Y1K
-problem.
-
-
-
---==_Exmh_-82808586P
-Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
-
------BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
-Hash: SHA1
-
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
-
-> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
-> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this
-> position, but in this I'm sure about this.
-
-That may ultimately be desirable.
-
-In the short term, it is likely preferable to use cygwin.
-
-It is only necessary to point at MySQL for an example. Cygwin is used there.
-<http://www.mysql.com/downloads/mysql-3.23.html> It is being used widely,
-"crap" or not.
-
-Cygwin may not ultimately be the ideal thing to use; we don't yet live in
-Pangloss' "Best of All Possible Worlds," and thus have to live with some
-things not being ideal.
-
-If having the installer install Cygwin as well as the DBMS makes it easy to
-have something usable soon, and this allows 100,000 WinFolk to try out
-PostgreSQL, then that's a Big Win. Out of 100K users, surely two or three may
-be attracted into working on a more Panglossian solution.
-
-It may be fair to say that none of those 100K folk would be using PostgreSQL
-to support HA applications involving hundreds of GB of data. That's _fine_.
-
-If there are new 100K folk using PostgreSQL/cygwin, _some_ of them will
-outgrow its capabilities, and come looking for improvements.
-
-And as they're Windows users, accustomed to having to pay hefty amounts to
-Microsoft to get support no better than that provided by the Psychic Friends
-Network (see <http://www.bmug.org/news/articles/MSvsPF.html>), they'll
-doubtless be prepared to have to pay _something_ in order for
-"PostgreSQL/Win3K-Enterprise Edition" to become available.
-
-That seems a not too unreasonable path towards the "Best of All Possible
-Worlds." There may be a bit of hyperbole in the above, but any time Voltaire
-gets quoted, that's likely to happen :-).
-- --
-(reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.gultn@" "enworbbc"))
-http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/wp.html
-Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
-
-- --
-(concatenate 'string "cbbrowne" "@ntlug.org")
-http://www.cbbrowne.com/info/multiplexor.html
-It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by the Y1K
-problem.
-
-
------BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
-Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
-Comment: Exmh version 2.3.1 01/18/2001 (debian 2.3.1-1)
-
-iD8DBQE83TgaN7hZUGqmpxMRAqSeAJ9jkunhAG72NLz7rcPMVcWXbHWY+gCgxu+D
-wumPJyqj0/9k5bc+v7NVvFI=
-=pKbi
------END PGP SIGNATURE-----
-
---==_Exmh_-82808586P--
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22812@postgresql.org Mon May 13 11:30:34 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22812@postgresql.org>\r
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- 13 May 2002 09:59:04 -0400\r
-Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 09:59:04 -0400\r
-From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32, How about this?\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CDC3AAE.E39FF877@mohawksoft.com>\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>, Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,\r
- Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Mail-Followup-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,\r
- Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>,\r
- Jean-Michel POURE <jm.poure@freesurf.fr>,\r
- Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
- Iavor Raytchev <iavor.raytchev@verysmall.org>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-mlw,
-
-On Fri, May 10, 2002 at 05:25:02PM -0400, mlw wrote:
-> A binary version of PostgreSQL for Windows should not use the cygwin
-> dll. I know and understand there is some disagreement with this position,
-> but in this I'm sure about this.
-
-Sorry, but I'm not going to touch the above -- even with a ten foot pole.
-Or, at least try not to... :,)
-
-> I believe we can use the cygwin development environment, and direct gcc
-> not to link with the cygwin dll. Last time I looked it was a command line
-> option. This will produce a native windows application. No emulation,
-> just a standard C runtime.
-
-Yes, the above mentioned option is "-mno-cygwin".
-
-> Some of the hits will be file path manipulation, '/' vs '\', the notion of
-> drive letters, and case insensitivity in file names.
-
-Case insensitivity is typically "enabled" regardless. Unless you are
-referring to CYGWIN=check_case:strict, but almost no one uses this setting.
-
-Just to be explicit, another hit will be the loss of Posix.
-
-> [snip]
->
-> I think a huge time savings can be had by avoiding rewriting everything
-> for the Microsoft build environment.
-
-Yes, you should use Cygwin and gcc -mno-cygwin or MSYS and Mingw.
-
-> As far as I know, and please correct me if I'm wrong, code produced by
-> the cygwin gcc is freely distributable and need not be GPL.
-
-The above is true only with gcc -mno-cygwin or Mingw code. Any code
-produced by the normal Cygwin gcc (and hence, linked against cygwin1.dll)
-is effectively GPL'd or at least required to be open source.
-
-> [snip]
-
-Jason
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
-
-http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22887@postgresql.org Thu May 16 07:48:56 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22887@postgresql.org>\r
-Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])\r
- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4GBmtB15522\r
- for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 16 May 2002 07:48:55 -0400 (EDT)\r
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- for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:48:12 +0200\r
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- by localhost.localdomain (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14722\r
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-Message-ID: <200205161148.NAA14722@localhost.localdomain>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain;\r
- charset="iso-8859-1"\r
-From: Joerg Hessdoerfer <Joerg.Hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com>\r
-Organization: S.E.A Datentechnik GmbH\r
-To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] WIN32 native ... lets start?!?\r
-Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:47:45 +0200\r
-X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.2]\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Hi all,
-
-I followed the various threads regarding this for some time now. My current
-situation is:
-
-I'm working at a company which does industrial automation, and does it's own
-custom products. We try to be cross-platform, but it's a windoze world, as
-far as most measurement devices or PLCs are concerned. We also employ
-databases for various tasks (including simple ones as holding configuration
-data, but also hammering production data into it at a rate of several hundred
-records/sec.)
-Well, we would *love* to use PostgreSQL in most our projects and products,
-(and we do already use it in some), because it has proven to be very reliable
-and quite fast.
-
-So, I'm faced with using PostgreSQL on windows also (you can't always put a
-Linux box besides). We do this using cygwin, but it's a bit painful ;-)
-(although it works!).
-
-Thinking about the hreads I read, it seems there are 2 obstacles to native PG
-on W:
-
-1.) no fork,
-2.) no SYSV IPC
-
-Ok, 1.) is an issue, but there's a fork() in MinGW, so it's 'just' going to
-be a bit slow on new connections to the DB, right?? But this could be sorted
-out once we *have* a native WIN32 build.
-
-The second one's a bit harder, but... I'm currently trying to find time to do
-a minimal implementation of SYSV IPC on WIN32 calls, just enough to get PG up
-(doesn't need msg*() for example, right?).
-As far as I understand it, we would not need to have IPC items around *after*
-all backends and postmaster have gone away, or? Then there's no need for a
-'daemon' process like in cygwin.
-
-So, my route would be to get it to run *somehow* without paying attention to
-speed and not to change much of the existing code, THEN see how we could get
-rid of fork() on windows.
-
-What do you guys think? Anyone up to join efforts? (I'll start the IPC thingy
-anyway, as an exercise, and see where I'll end).
-
-Greetings,
- Joerg
-
-P.s.: thanks for a great database system!!
---
-Leading SW developer - S.E.A GmbH
-Mail: joerg.hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com
-WWW: http://www.sea-gmbh.com
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
- (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M22888@postgresql.org Thu May 16 09:39:14 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M22888@postgresql.org>\r
-Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])\r
- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g4GDdDB16601\r
- for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 16 May 2002 09:39:13 -0400 (EDT)\r
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- id 92DBB1035CA; Thu, 16 May 2002 10:38:25 -0300 (ADT)\r
-Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:38:25 -0300 (ADT)\r
-From: "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>\r
-To: Joerg Hessdoerfer <Joerg.Hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com>\r
-cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] WIN32 native ... lets start?!?\r
-In-Reply-To: <200205161148.NAA14722@localhost.localdomain>\r
-Message-ID: <20020516103501.Q6260-100000@mail1.hub.org>\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: ROr\r
-\r
-
-Actually, take a look at the thread starting at:
-
- http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2002-05/msg00665.php
-
-Right now, IMHO, the big show stopper is passing global variables to the
-child processes in Windows ... the above thread talks about a method of
-pulling together the global variables *cleanly* that Tom seems to feel
-wouldn't add much in the way of long term maintenance headaches ... *and*,
-as I understand it, would provide us with a means to use threading in
-future developments if deemed appropriate ...
-
->From what I read by those 'in the know' about Windows programming, if we
-could centralize the global variables somewhat, using CreateProcess in
-Windows shouldn't be a big deal, eliminiating the whole fork() headache
-...
-
-On Thu, 16 May 2002, Joerg Hessdoerfer wrote:
-
-> Hi all,
->
-> I followed the various threads regarding this for some time now. My current
-> situation is:
->
-> I'm working at a company which does industrial automation, and does it's own
-> custom products. We try to be cross-platform, but it's a windoze world, as
-> far as most measurement devices or PLCs are concerned. We also employ
-> databases for various tasks (including simple ones as holding configuration
-> data, but also hammering production data into it at a rate of several hundred
-> records/sec.)
-> Well, we would *love* to use PostgreSQL in most our projects and products,
-> (and we do already use it in some), because it has proven to be very reliable
-> and quite fast.
->
-> So, I'm faced with using PostgreSQL on windows also (you can't always put a
-> Linux box besides). We do this using cygwin, but it's a bit painful ;-)
-> (although it works!).
->
-> Thinking about the hreads I read, it seems there are 2 obstacles to native PG
-> on W:
->
-> 1.) no fork,
-> 2.) no SYSV IPC
->
-> Ok, 1.) is an issue, but there's a fork() in MinGW, so it's 'just' going to
-> be a bit slow on new connections to the DB, right?? But this could be sorted
-> out once we *have* a native WIN32 build.
->
-> The second one's a bit harder, but... I'm currently trying to find time to do
-> a minimal implementation of SYSV IPC on WIN32 calls, just enough to get PG up
-> (doesn't need msg*() for example, right?).
-> As far as I understand it, we would not need to have IPC items around *after*
-> all backends and postmaster have gone away, or? Then there's no need for a
-> 'daemon' process like in cygwin.
->
-> So, my route would be to get it to run *somehow* without paying attention to
-> speed and not to change much of the existing code, THEN see how we could get
-> rid of fork() on windows.
->
-> What do you guys think? Anyone up to join efforts? (I'll start the IPC thingy
-> anyway, as an exercise, and see where I'll end).
->
-> Greetings,
-> Joerg
->
-> P.s.: thanks for a great database system!!
-> --
-> Leading SW developer - S.E.A GmbH
-> Mail: joerg.hessdoerfer@sea-gmbh.com
-> WWW: http://www.sea-gmbh.com
->
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-> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
->
-
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23371@postgresql.org Mon Jun 3 07:19:20 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23371@postgresql.org>\r
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- for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>;\r
- Sun, 2 Jun 2002 21:15:08 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <010201c20a9b$8779a4a0$b401a8c0@vrlas>\r
-Reply-To: "coventry" <coventry@one.net>\r
-From: "coventry" <coventry@one.net>\r
-To: "pg hackers" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports\r
-Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 21:11:02 -0400\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
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-\r
-I think its already been determined that the cygwin option is too low
-performing.
-
-However, the apache stuff could be quite useful - but if that effort
-were to be undertaken, it would make more sense to move all versions of the
-code the
-the apache runtime, for all platforms. Are there any other runtime
-libraries out there
-that are cross platform, open/free and high performance? I know the mozilla
-XPCOM
-libraries work quite nicely, but are geared more towards multithreaded
-apps - and the
-COM-alike infrastructure is something we wouldn't need.
-
-~Jon
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>
-Cc: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>; Marc G. Fournier <scrappy@hub.org>;
-<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 8:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports
-
-
-> mlw wrote:
-> > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
-write it
-> > for Windows.
-> >
-> > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind
-of cool
-> > to have.
->
-> I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
->
-> --
-> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
->
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-> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
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-
-From jason@tishler.net Mon Jun 3 09:19:17 2002
-Return-path: <jason@tishler.net>\r
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-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:18:40 -0400\r
-From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Mail-Followup-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Message-ID: <20020603131840.GA1020@tishler.net>\r
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-References: <3CD318C1.FF21DFDB@mohawksoft.com>\r
- <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Bruce,
-
-On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:49:21PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> mlw wrote:
-> > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write it
-> > for Windows.
-> >
-> > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
-> > cool to have.
->
-> I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
-
-Are you referring to cygipc above? If so, they even one of the original
-cygipc authors would discourage this:
-
- http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-09/msg00017.html
-
-Specifically, Ludovic Lange states the following:
-
- > I really think the solution would be to start again from scratch
- > another implementation, as was suggested. The way we did it was
- > quick and dirty, the goals weren't to have production systems
- > running on it but only to run prototypes. So the internal design
- > (if there is any) may not be adequate for the cygwin project.
-
-However, Rob Collins has contributed a MinGW daemon to Cygwin to support
-switching users, System V IPC, etc. So, this code base may be a more
-suitable starting point to satisfy PostgreSQL's native Win32 System V
-IPC needs.
-
-Jason
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23378@postgresql.org Mon Jun 3 09:29:13 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23378@postgresql.org>\r
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- 03 Jun 2002 09:28:48 -0400\r
-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 09:28:48 -0400\r
-From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com>\r
-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Mail-Followup-To: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>,\r
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
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- <3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > mlw wrote:
-> > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write
-> > > it for Windows.
-> > >
-> > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
-> > > cool to have.
-> >
-> > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
->
-> but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
-> with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
-
-Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
-it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
-be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
-avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
-currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
-such as Python and Apache are.
-
-Jason
-
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- Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:44:39 -0400\r
-From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-Message-ID: <200206031344.g53Didi02442@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports\r
-In-Reply-To: <20020603132848.GB1020@tishler.net> from Jason Tishler at "Jun 3,\r
- 2002 09:28:48 am"\r
-To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:44:38 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>, "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>,\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Jason Tishler wrote:
-> On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
-> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > > mlw wrote:
-> > > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll write
-> > > > it for Windows.
-> > > >
-> > > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind of
-> > > > cool to have.
-> > >
-> > > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> > > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
-> >
-> > but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
-> > with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
->
-> Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
-> it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
-> be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
-> avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
-> currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
-> such as Python and Apache are.
-
- Whatever technical problems there are, we can debate on and
- on if it's worth working around them in PostgreSQL or fixing
- them in CygWIN or whatever.
-
- The main problem will remain. That using PostgreSQL under
- CygWIN requires some UNIX know how. So a pure Windows
- user/shop needs UNIX knowledge to run our "Windows port" of
- PostgreSQL? Interesting definition of "port".
-
-
-Jan
-
---
-
-#======================================================================#
-# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
-# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
-#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
-
-
-
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-
-From markw@mohawksoft.com Mon Jun 3 17:40:50 2002
-Return-path: <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
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-Message-ID: <3CFBE1C9.A0B83716@mohawksoft.com>\r
-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400\r
-From: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.18-3smp i686)\r
-X-Accept-Language: en\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports\r
-References: <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
- <3CFAC785.4AAF9F79@mohawksoft.com> <20020603132848.GB1020@tishler.net>\r
- <3CFB70F3.63AE630B@mohawksoft.com> <20020603142957.GA952@tishler.net>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Jason Tishler wrote:
->
-> On Mon, Jun 03, 2002 at 09:36:51AM -0400, mlw wrote:
-> > Jason Tishler wrote:
-> > >
-> > > On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 09:33:57PM -0400, mlw wrote:
-> > > > Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > > > > mlw wrote:
-> > > > > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
-> > > > > > write it for Windows.
-> > > > > >
-> > > > > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be
-> > > > > > kind of cool to have.
-> > > > >
-> > > > > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> > > > > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
-> > > >
-> > > > but! in the course of testing some code, I managed to gain some experience
-> > > > with cygwin. I have seen fork() problems with a large number of processes.
-> > >
-> > > Since Cygwin's fork() is implemented with WaitForMultipleObjects(),
-> > > it has a limitation of only 63 children per parent. Also, there can
-> > > be DLL base address conflicts (causing Cygwin fork() to fail) that are
-> > > avoidable by rebasing the appropriate DLLs. AFAICT, Cygwin PostgreSQL is
-> > > currently *not* affected by this issue where as other Cygwin applications
-> > > such as Python and Apache are.
-> >
-> > Why would not PostgreSQL be affected by this?
->
-> Sorry, if I was unclear -- I should have used two paragraphs above and
-> maybe a few more words... :,)
->
-> Cygwin PostgreSQL *is* affected by the Cygwin 63 children per parent
-> fork limitation.
->
-> PostgreSQL *can* be affected by the Cygwin DLL base address conflict
-> fork issue, but in my experience (both personal and by monitoring the
-> Cygwin and pgsql-cygwin lists), no one has been affected yet. The DLL
-> base address conflict is a "probability" thing. The more DLLs loaded
-> the greater the chance of a conflict (and fork() failing). Since, Cygwin
-> PostgreSQL loads only a few DLLs, this has not become an issue (yet).
-
-I'm not sure the DLL load address is a big issue for PostgreSQL, AFAIK no
-option DLLs will be loaded by Postmaster. So, with fork() it will be a simple
-process. A PostgreSQL child will die upon completion, and never execute fork().
-
-My concern would be the limit on the number of child processes allowed. 63 is
-far below what would be considered a usable number in production, and as long
-as that is an issue, I don't think anyone would take PostgreSQL seriously.
-
-A Windows version of PostgreSQL must run within the confines of the Windows OS.
-The reason, IMHO, that no one has found any serious bugs in the cygwin version,
-is because no one is seriously using it. Anyone who *would* seriously use it,
-knows better.
-
-From robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de Mon Jun 3 10:08:28 2002
-Return-path: <robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de>\r
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-From: Robert Schrem <robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de>\r
-Reply-To: robert.schrem@WiredMinds.de\r
-Organization: WiredMinds GmbH\r
-To: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: HEADS UP: Win32/OS2/BeOS native ports - the 'BEST OPEN SOURCE database backend'\r
-Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:08:14 +0200\r
-X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4]\r
-cc: mlw <markw@mohawksoft.com>, Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>,\r
- "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy@hub.org>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-References: <3CD318C1.FF21DFDB@mohawksoft.com> <200206030049.g530nL822000@candle.pha.pa.us> <20020603131840.GA1020@tishler.net>\r
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-\r
-Hi,
-
-You may want to have a look at: http://www.garret.ru/~knizhnik/
-You find there code for a 'Fast synchronized access to shared
-memory for Windows and for i86 Unix-es".
-
-kind regards,
-
-Robert
-
-> Bruce,
->
-> On Sun, Jun 02, 2002 at 08:49:21PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > mlw wrote:
-> > > Like I told Marc, I don't care. You spec out what you want and I'll
-> > > write it for Windows.
-> > >
-> > > That being said, a SysV IPC interface for native Windows would be kind
-> > > of cool to have.
-> >
-> > I am wondering why we don't just use the Cygwin shm/sem code in our
-> > project, or maybe the Apache stuff; why bother reinventing the wheel.
->
-> Are you referring to cygipc above? If so, they even one of the original
-> cygipc authors would discourage this:
->
-> http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-apps/2001-09/msg00017.html
->
-> Specifically, Ludovic Lange states the following:
-> > I really think the solution would be to start again from scratch
-> > another implementation, as was suggested. The way we did it was
-> > quick and dirty, the goals weren't to have production systems
-> > running on it but only to run prototypes. So the internal design
-> > (if there is any) may not be adequate for the cygwin project.
->
-> However, Rob Collins has contributed a MinGW daemon to Cygwin to support
-> switching users, System V IPC, etc. So, this code base may be a more
-> suitable starting point to satisfy PostgreSQL's native Win32 System V
-> IPC needs.
->
-> Jason
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23404@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 00:34:21 2002
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- for pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:33:44 -0400 (EDT)\r
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <20020516103501.Q6260-100000@mail1.hub.org>\r
-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 00:33:44 -0400 (EDT)\r
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-\r
-OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
-like to make some remarks.
-
-First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
-answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
-ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
-if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
-of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
-need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
-are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
-
-So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
-Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
-
-INSTALLER
----------
-
-We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
-decide on a direction for this.
-
-GUI
----
-
-We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
-pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
-
-BINARY
-------
-
-This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
-
-FORK()
-
-How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
-whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
-that small part manually after we create a new process?
-
-THREADING
-
-Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
-which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
-superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
-Solaris as well.)
-
-IPC
-
-We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
-other options?
-
-ENVIRONMENT
-
-Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-using cygwin for this?
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
-items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
-keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
-the project.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23405@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 01:02:39 2002
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-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
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-Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:02:14 -0700\r
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-Thread-Topic: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Thread-Index: AcIMSk/7WQpVSQqTSsiRN1SUew56HgAAWkLg\r
-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
-> Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 9:34 PM
-> To: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin
-> discussion, and would
-> like to make some remarks.
->
-> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
-> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies
-> working on Win32
-> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be
-> PostgreSQL forks
-> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well,
-> obviously, a number
-> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't
-> meeting that
-> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases
-> where groups
-> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
->
-> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
-> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
->
-> INSTALLER
-> ---------
->
-> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users.
-> We need to
-> decide on a direction for this.
->
-> GUI
-> ---
->
-> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
-> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
-
-Nothing else. It is better than any commercial tools in current use.
-An excellent piece of work.
-
-> BINARY
-> ------
->
-> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
->
-> FORK()
->
-> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
-> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
-> that small part manually after we create a new process?
-
-Do not try to do a fork() on Win32. The one at PW32 is better, but
-still awful. Win32 just does not have fascilities for fork().
-
-If you use Cygwin, it will kill the project for commercial use (at least
-for many institutions). That's fine, but it will become an academic
-exercise instead of a viable commercial tool. If they are comfortable
-in that [Cygwin] environment, it makes no sense to use Cygwin instead of
-Redhat. The Redhat version will fork() 100 times faster. After all, if
-they are going to use unix tools in a unix interface with Unix scripts
-you might as well use UNIX. And Cygwin requires a license for
-commercial use.
-http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
-
-> THREADING
->
-> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
-> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
-> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
-> Solaris as well.)
-
-CreateProcess() works well for Win32. That is the approach that we used
-and also the approach used by the Japanese team.
-It is very simple. Simply do a create process call and then perform the
-same operations that were done up to that point. It isn't difficult.
-Threading is another possibility. I think create process is better,
-because you can clone the rights of the one who attaches for the spawned
-server (if you want to do that).
-
->
-> IPC
->
-> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
-> other options?
-
-We wrote our own from scratch. Cygwin will kill it. If there is a
-MinGW version it might be OK, but if MinGW is GPL, that will kill it.
-Have a look at ACE:
-http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE.html
-Their license is on the same level as a BSD license. Now, they use C++,
-but you can always write:
-extern "C" {
-}
-wrappers for stuff and keep PostgreSQL itself in pure, vanilla C. GCC
-does come with a C++ compiler, so it isn't going to cut anyone off.
-
-> ENVIRONMENT
->
-> Lots of our code requires a Unix shell and utilities. Will
-> we continue
-> using cygwin for this?
-
-We wrote our own utilities from scratch (e.g. initdb). The Japanese
-group that did the port did the same thing.
-
-> --------------------------------------------------------------
-> -------------
->
-> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
-> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
-> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
-> the project.
-
-If you want a roadmap, the Japanese group laid it out for you. They
-did the exact same steps as we did. Now, I don't know if we will be
-able to contribute or not (it is very much up in the air). And we had
-to do a lot of hacking of the source, so you might not want it if we
-volunteered.
-
-Suggestion:
-Ask the Japanese group if they would like to post their changes back or
-expose them so that the programming team can get ideas form it.
-
-I actually like what they did better than what we did (A giant DLL and
-all the binaries are microscopic -- it was how I suggested to do it here
-but it was vetoed).
-
-Anyway, here is a roadmap laid out for you exactly. Just do what it
-says and you will be fine:
-http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-
-Look at where it says "Gists for patch" and do that.
-
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-
-From markir@slingshot.co.nz Wed Jun 5 03:44:54 2002
-Return-path: <markir@slingshot.co.nz>\r
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-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-From: Mark kirkwood <markir@slingshot.co.nz>\r
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
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-Date: 05 Jun 2002 19:38:52 +1200\r
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-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-Status: ROr\r
-\r
-On Wed, 2002-06-05 at 16:33, Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
-> like to make some remarks.
->
-> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
-> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
-> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
-> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
-> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
-> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
-> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
->
-> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
-> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
->
-> INSTALLER
-> ---------
->
-> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
-> decide on a direction for this.
->
-> GUI
-> ---
->
-> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
-> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
->
-> BINARY
-> ------
->
-> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
->
-> FORK()
->
-> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
-> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
-> that small part manually after we create a new process?
->
-> THREADING
->
-> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
-> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
-> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
-> Solaris as well.)
->
-> IPC
->
-> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
-> other options?
->
-> ENVIRONMENT
->
-> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-> using cygwin for this?
->
-> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
->
-> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
-> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
-> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
-> the project.
->
-> --
-> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
->
-> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
->
-Is it worth looking at how the mysql crowd did their win32 port -
-(or is that intrinsically a _bad_thing_ to do..) ?
-
-(I am guessing that is why their sources requires c++ ....)
-
-regards
-
-Mark
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23408@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 08:16:29 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23408@postgresql.org>\r
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-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 08:07:06 -0400\r
-From: Jason Tishler <jason@tishler.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
- <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82906F465@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Mail-Followup-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>,\r
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>\r
-Message-ID: <20020605120705.GA1544@tishler.net>\r
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-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: ROr\r
-\r
-Dan,
-
-The following is to help keep the archives accurate and should not be
-construed as an argument against the native Win32 port.
-
-On Tue, Jun 04, 2002 at 10:02:14PM -0700, Dann Corbit wrote:
-> And Cygwin requires a license for commercial use.
-> http://cygwin.com/licensing.html
-
-The above is not necessarily true:
-
- Red Hat sells a special Cygwin License for customers who are unable
- to provide their application in open source code form.
-
-Note that the above only comes into play if your application links
-with the Cygwin DLL. This is easily avoidable by using JDBC, ODBC,
-Win32 libpq, etc. Hence, most people will not be required to purchase
-this license from Red Hat.
-
-Jason
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-Message-ID: <11f301c20cc7$b1f73a70$22c30191@comm.mot.com>\r
-From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>\r
-To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:32:13 -0500\r
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-\r
-I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the need
-for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
-come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32 threads...
-I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
-platforms which don't support them yet?
-
-This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the bright
-side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however, Apache
-group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which would
-provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to deal
-with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned backends
-would also be removed since there would be only one process.
-
-Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things will
-probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way if
-you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
-
-I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would be
-something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread would
-handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
-condvar). How does that sound?
-
--- igor
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-To: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 11:33 PM
-Subject: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> OK, I think I am now caught up on the Win32/cygwin discussion, and would
-> like to make some remarks.
->
-> First, are we doing enough to support the Win32 platform? I think the
-> answer is clearly "no". There are 3-5 groups/companies working on Win32
-> ports of PostgreSQL. We always said there would not be PostgreSQL forks
-> if we were doing our job to meet user needs. Well, obviously, a number
-> of groups see a need for a better Win32 port and we aren't meeting that
-> need, so they are. I believe this is one of the few cases where groups
-> are going out on their own because we are falling behind.
->
-> So, there is no question in my mind we need to do more to encourage
-> Win32 ports. Now, on to the details.
->
-> INSTALLER
-> ---------
->
-> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
-> decide on a direction for this.
->
-> GUI
-> ---
->
-> We need a slick GUI. pgadmin2 seems to be everyone's favorite, with
-> pgaccess on Win32 also an option. What else do we need here?
->
-> BINARY
-> ------
->
-> This is the big daddy. It is broken down into several sections:
->
-> FORK()
->
-> How do we handle fork()? Do we use the cygwin method that copies the
-> whole data segment, or put the global data in shared memory and copy
-> that small part manually after we create a new process?
->
-> THREADING
->
-> Related to fork(), do we implement an optionally threaded postmaster,
-> which eliminates CreateProcess() entirely? I don't think we will have
-> superior performance on Win32 without it. (This would greatly help
-> Solaris as well.)
->
-> IPC
->
-> We can use Cygwin, MinGW, Apache, or our own code for this. Are there
-> other options?
->
-> ENVIRONMENT
->
-> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-> using cygwin for this?
->
-> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
->
-> As a roadmap, it would be good to get consensus on as many of these
-> items as possible so people can start working in these areas. We can
-> keep a web page of decisions we have made to help rally developers to
-> the project.
->
-> --
-> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
->
-> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
->
-
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <11f301c20cc7$b1f73a70$22c30191@comm.mot.com>\r
-To: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:05:02 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-Igor Kovalenko wrote:
-> I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the need
-> for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
-> come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32 threads...
-> I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
-> platforms which don't support them yet?
->
-> This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the bright
-> side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however, Apache
-> group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which would
-> provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to deal
-> with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned backends
-> would also be removed since there would be only one process.
->
-> Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things will
-> probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way if
-> you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
->
-> I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would be
-> something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread would
-> handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
-> condvar). How does that sound?
-
-Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
-operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
-where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
-stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
-
-From thomas@fourpalms.org Wed Jun 5 18:02:46 2002
-Return-path: <thomas@fourpalms.org>\r
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- for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:02:45 -0400 (EDT)\r
-Message-ID: <3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>\r
-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:02:33 -0700\r
-From: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-34.1mdk i686)\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii\r
-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-...
-> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
-> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
-> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
-> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
-
-I would think that we would build on our strengths of having a fork/exec
-model for separate clients. A threaded model *could* benefit individual
-clients who are doing queries on multiprocessor servers, and I would be
-supportive of efforts to enable that.
-
-But the requirements for that may be less severe than for managing
-multiple clients within the same process, and imho there is not strong
-requirement to enable the latter for our current crop of well supported
-targets. If it came for free then great, but if it came with a high cost
-then the choice is not as obvious. It is also not a *requirement* if we
-were instead able to do the multiple threads for a single client
-scenerio first.
-
- - Thomas
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23421@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 18:42:44 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23421@postgresql.org>\r
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-Message-ID: <3CFE8EE2.46020ACC@fourpalms.org>\r
-Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 15:21:22 -0700\r
-From: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>\r
-X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.8-34.1mdk i686)\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-To: Dann Corbit <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-References: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF21@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-\r
-...
-> Notion:
-> Have one version do both. Your server can fork(), and your sever can
-> thread. It can fork() and thread, it can fork() or thread.
-> That gives the best of all worlds. One client who has his attachments
-> to a database all setup might want to do a bunch of similar queries.
-> Hence a threaded model is nice.
-> A server may be set up to clone the rights of the attaching process for
-> security reasons. Then you launch a new server with fork().
-
-Right. If/when that is possible then let's do it, as long as the cost is
-not too high. But the intermediate steps are a possibility also, and are
-not precluded from discussion.
-
-This will all work out as a *convergence* of interests imho. And there
-is no great identifiable benefit for our current crop of platforms for
-going to a threaded model *unless* that enables queries for a single
-client to execute in parallel (all imho of course ;).
-
-So our convergence of interests for all platforms is in enabling
-threading for these two purposes, and focusing on enabling the
-multithreaded single client *first* means that the current crop of
-clients don't have to accept all negatives while we start on the road to
-better support of Win32 machines.
-
- - Thomas
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23422@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 19:23:03 2002
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-From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>\r
-To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400\r
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-\r
-One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
-as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
-look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
-
-http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
-
-Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind that a
-hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
-solution...
-
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
-Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> Igor Kovalenko wrote:
-> > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the
-need
-> > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard to
-> > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
-threads...
-> > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important Unix
-> > platforms which don't support them yet?
-> >
-> > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
-bright
-> > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
-Apache
-> > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which
-would
-> > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
-deal
-> > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
-backends
-> > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
-> >
-> > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some things
-will
-> > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best way
-if
-> > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
-> >
-> > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it would
-be
-> > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
-would
-> > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked on
-> > condvar). How does that sound?
->
-> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
-> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
-> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
-> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
->
-> --
-> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23423@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 20:10:50 2002
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-From: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>\r
-To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>\r
-cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Message-ID: <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>\r
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-\r
-On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
-"Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
-> One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
-> as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
-> look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-> utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
-
-I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
-disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
-that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
-that useful.
-
-However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
-PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
-sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
-(e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
-
-Cheers,
-
-Neil
-
---
-Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
-PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
-
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-From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>\r
-To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us> <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 10:50:09 +1000\r
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-\r
-Yes I proposed to use the GNU Pth library instead. It's an event
-demultiplexer just like the sgi library, but has a posix thread interface.
-This architecture is actually the more robust and also the more scalable. On
-a single processor server, you don't have the multi-thread synchronization
-and context switching overhead and you also take full advantage of
-multi-processor servers when you create several processes. Plus you have
-much less concern about global variables.
-
-Also for those concerned about the licence of this library here is an
-abstract of it:
-"The author places this library under the LGPL to make sure that it
-can be used both commercially and non-commercially provided that
-modifications to the code base are always donated back to the official
-code base under the same license conditions. Please keep in mind that
-especially using this library in code not staying under the GPL or
-the LGPL _is_ allowed and that any taint or license creap into code
-that uses the library is not the authors intention. It is just the
-case that _including_ this library into the source tree of other
-applications is a little bit more inconvinient because of the LGPL.
-But it has to be this way for good reasons. And keep in mind that
-inconvinient doesn't mean not allowed or even impossible."
-
-So it can be used in both commercial and non commercial project.
-
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
-To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:50 AM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
-using
-> as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
-> look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-> utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
->
-> http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
->
-> Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind that
-a
-> hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
-> solution...
->
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-> To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
-> Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-> Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
-> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> > Igor Kovalenko wrote:
-> > > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove the
-> need
-> > > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too hard
-to
-> > > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
-> threads...
-> > > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important
-Unix
-> > > platforms which don't support them yet?
-> > >
-> > > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
-> bright
-> > > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
-> Apache
-> > > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model which
-> would
-> > > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
-> deal
-> > > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
-> backends
-> > > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
-> > >
-> > > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some
-things
-> will
-> > > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best
-way
-> if
-> > > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32 implementations.
-> > >
-> > > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it
-would
-> be
-> > > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
-> would
-> > > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked
-on
-> > > condvar). How does that sound?
-> >
-> > Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
-> > operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
-> > where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
-> > stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
-> >
-> > --
-> > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
-19026
-> >
-> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
->
->
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206060053.g560rF010370@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>\r
-To: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:53:15 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
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-\r
-Neil Conway wrote:
-> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
-> "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
-> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance using
-> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want to
-> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
->
-> I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
-> disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
-> that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
-> that useful.
->
-> However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
-> PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
-> sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
-> (e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
-
-I know Red Hat is interested in AIO. Only a few OS's support it so it
-was hard to get exited about it at the time, but with threading, a
-AIO-specific module could be attempted.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
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- id 0F7F3AC5A2; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:01:57 -0300 (EST)\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:05:11 -0300\r
-From: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>\r
-X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.60i)\r
-Reply-To: Steve Howe <howe@carcass.dhs.org>\r
-Organization: ACME\r
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-To: Thomas Lockhart <thomas@fourpalms.org>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
- <3CFE8A79.84738F2F@fourpalms.org>\r
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-\r
-Hello Thomas,
-
-Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 7:02:33 PM, you wrote:
-
-TL> ...
->> Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
->> operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
->> where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
->> stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
-
-TL> I would think that we would build on our strengths of having a fork/exec
-TL> model for separate clients. A threaded model *could* benefit individual
-TL> clients who are doing queries on multiprocessor servers, and I would be
-TL> supportive of efforts to enable that.
-Just a note - this is also the solution adopted by Interbase/Firebird
-and it seems interesting. They already had the same problems
-PostgreSQL has been under today.
-Those interested in read about Interbase's architeture, please refer
-to http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,23217,00.html.
-"Classic" is the fork() model, and the "SuperServer" is the threaded
-model.
--------------
-Best regards,
- Steve Howe mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org
-
-
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-From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>\r
-To: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>, "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>,\r
- <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us> <001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn> <004301c20cf4$1b8d8c10$660d090a@software.ingenico.com.au>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:22:40 +1000\r
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-\r
-Gnu Pth also supports AIO
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Nicolas Bazin" <nbazin@ingenico.com.au>
-To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>; <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 10:50 AM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> Yes I proposed to use the GNU Pth library instead. It's an event
-> demultiplexer just like the sgi library, but has a posix thread interface.
-> This architecture is actually the more robust and also the more scalable.
-On
-> a single processor server, you don't have the multi-thread synchronization
-> and context switching overhead and you also take full advantage of
-> multi-processor servers when you create several processes. Plus you have
-> much less concern about global variables.
->
-> Also for those concerned about the licence of this library here is an
-> abstract of it:
-> "The author places this library under the LGPL to make sure that it
-> can be used both commercially and non-commercially provided that
-> modifications to the code base are always donated back to the official
-> code base under the same license conditions. Please keep in mind that
-> especially using this library in code not staying under the GPL or
-> the LGPL _is_ allowed and that any taint or license creap into code
-> that uses the library is not the authors intention. It is just the
-> case that _including_ this library into the source tree of other
-> applications is a little bit more inconvinient because of the LGPL.
-> But it has to be this way for good reasons. And keep in mind that
-> inconvinient doesn't mean not allowed or even impossible."
->
-> So it can be used in both commercial and non commercial project.
->
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
-> To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:50 AM
-> Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
-> using
-> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want
-to
-> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model. Please see:
-> >
-> > http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
-> >
-> > Thus, on platforms where it can be supported, we should keep in mind
-that
-> a
-> > hybrid multiprocess/multithreaded postgresql might be the fastest
-> > solution...
-> >
-> >
-> > ----- Original Message -----
-> > From: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-> > To: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>
-> > Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-> > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 4:05 PM
-> > Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-> >
-> >
-> > > Igor Kovalenko wrote:
-> > > > I might be naive here, but would not proper threading model remove
-the
-> > need
-> > > > for fork() altogether? On both Unix and Win32? Should not be too
-hard
-> to
-> > > > come up with abstraction which encapsulates POSIX, BeOS and Win32
-> > threads...
-> > > > I am not sure how universal POSIX threads are by now. Any important
-> Unix
-> > > > platforms which don't support them yet?
-> > > >
-> > > > This has downside of letting any bug to kill the whole thing. On the
-> > bright
-> > > > side, performance should be better on some platforms (note however,
-> > Apache
-> > > > group still can't come up with implementation of threaded model
-which
-> > would
-> > > > provide better performance than forked or other models). The need to
-> > deal
-> > > > with possibility of 'alien' postmaster running along with orphaned
-> > backends
-> > > > would also be removed since there would be only one process.
-> > > >
-> > > > Issue of thread safety of code will come up undoubtedly and some
-> things
-> > will
-> > > > probably have to be revamped. But in long term this is probably best
-> way
-> > if
-> > > > you want to have efficient and uniform Unix AND Win32
-implementations.
-> > > >
-> > > > I am not too familiar with Win32. Speaking about POSIX threads, it
-> would
-> > be
-> > > > something like a thread pool with low & high watermarks. Main thread
-> > would
-> > > > handle thread pool and hand over requests to worker threads (blocked
-> on
-> > > > condvar). How does that sound?
-> > >
-> > > Good summary. I think we would support both threaded and fork()
-> > > operation, and users can control which they prefer. For a web backend
-> > > where many sessions are a single query, people may want to give up the
-> > > stability of fork() and go with threads, even on Unix.
-> > >
-> > > --
-> > > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
-> > > pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
-> > > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
-> > > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania
-> 19026
-> > >
-> > > ---------------------------(end of
-broadcast)---------------------------
-> > > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to
-majordomo@postgresql.org
-> >
-> >
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-> >
->
->
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-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-References: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
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-\r
-Hello Bruce,
-
-Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 1:33:44 AM, you wrote:
-
-BM> INSTALLER
-BM> ---------
-
-BM> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for users. We need to
-BM> decide on a direction for this.
-I suggest Nullsoft install system
-(http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/). It's real good and very simple
-to use. I can help on this if you want.
-
-BM> ENVIRONMENT
-
-BM> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-BM> using cygwin for this?
-There are other ports ( http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/ ) that won't
-require Cygwin but they won't provide an environment so complete as
-Cygwin does.
-
-I also would like to empathize that probably a small GUI for
-controlling the PostgreSQL service/application would be nice. I think
-about something sitting in the system tray like MSSQL, Oracle,
-Interbase, etc. does.
-I could code this in Delphi if you like. I don't have experience in
-writing GUI apps in C. There is an open source versions of Delphi so
-it won't be a problem compiling it.
-Also coming with this, a code for starting the PostgreSQL as a service
-would be really nice. For those from UNIX world that don't know what a
-service is, think about it as a daemon for Windows. A service can be
-automatically started when the machine boots up.
-
--------------
-Best regards,
- Steve Howe mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23429@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 22:54:37 2002
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-From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>\r
-To: "Neil Conway" <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>\r
-cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <200206052005.g55K52615577@candle.pha.pa.us><001201c20ce3$6e21bed0$a1ed03c7@dev.ngcn> <20020605200544.4a486fe4.nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:54:29 -0500\r
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-\r
-I think SGI gets amazing performance because they have very good (efficient)
-synchronisation primitives on SGI. Some proprietary light-weight mutexes.
-Using threaded or mixed model just by itself is not going to do a miracle.
-Threads will save you some context switch time, but that will probably
-translate into lower CPU usage rather than performance boost. And if your
-mutexes are not fast or awkwardly implemented (say Linux), it might be even
-worse. Apache is not all that fast on Linux as on SGI, whatever model you
-chose. I also doubt that purely threaded model would be slower than mixed
-one.
-
-Now about the AIO model. It is useful when you need to do something else
-while I/O requests are being processed as long as platform does it in some
-useful way. If all you can do is to submit requests and keep sitting in
-select/poll then AIO does not buy you anything you can't get by just using
-threaded model. However, if you can tag the requests and set up
-notifications, then few I/O threads could handle relatively large number of
-requests from different clients. Note, this means you don't have any
-association between clients and servers at all, there is pool of generic I/O
-threads which serve requests from whoever they come. It saves system
-resources and scales very well. It also provides interesting possibilities
-for fault recovery - since handlers are generic all the state information
-would have to be kept in some kind of global context area. That area can be
-saved into persistent memory or dumped onto disk and *recovered* after a
-forced restart. Server and library could be designed in such a way that
-clients may continue where they left with a recoverable error.
-
-In POSIX AIO model you can tag requests and set up notifications via
-synchronous signals. You wait for them *synchronously* in 'waiter' thread
-via sigwaitinfo() and avoid the headache of asynchronous signals hitting you
-any time... Unfortunately on some platforms (Solaris) the depth of
-synchronous signal queue is fixed at magic value 32 (and not adjustable).
-This may not be a problem if you're sure that waiting thread will be able to
-drain the queue faster than it gets filled with notifications... but I'm not
-sure there is a portable way to guarantee that, so you need to check for
-overloads and handle them... that complicates things. On Solaris you also
-need a mile of compiler/linker switches to even get this scheme to work and
-I am afraid other platforms may not support it at all (but then again, they
-may not support AIO to begin with).
-
-And speaking about getting best of all worlds. Note how Apache spent nearly
-3 years developing their portable Multi-Processing Modules scheme. What they
-got for that is handful of models neither of which perform noticeably better
-than original pre-fork() model. Trying to swallow all possible ways to
-handle things on all possible platforms usually does not produce very fast
-code. It tends to produce very complex code with mediocre performance and
-introduces extra complexity into configuration process. If you consider all
-that was done mostly to support Win32, one might doubt if it was worth the
-while.
-
-What I am trying to say is, extra complexity in model to squeeze few percent
-of performance is not a wise investment of time and efforts. On Win32 you
-don't really compete in terms of performance. You compete in terms of
-easyness and features. Spend 3 years trying to support Windows and Unix in
-most optimal way including all subvariants of Unix ... meanwhile MSFT will
-come up with some bundled SQL server. It probably will have more features
-since they will spend time doing features rather than inventing a model to
-support gazillion of platforms. Chances are, it will be faster too - due to
-better integration with OS and better compiler.
-
-I am not in position to tell you what to do guys. But if I was asked, I'd
-say supporting Win32 is only worth it if it comes as a natural result of a
-simple, coherent and uniform model applied to Unix. Threaded model may not
-have as much inherent stability as forked/mixed, but it has inherent
-simplicity and better Unix/Windows/BeOS portability. It can be done faster
-and simpler code will make work on features easier.
-
-Regards,
-- Igor
-
-"There are 2 ways to design an efficient system - first is to design it so
-complex that there are no obvious deficiencies, second is to design it so
-simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. Second way is much harder"
-(author unknown to me)
-
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Neil Conway" <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>
-To: "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net>
-Cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 7:05 PM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> On Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:50:46 -0400
-> "Jon Franz" <coventry@one.net> wrote:
-> > One note: SGI developers discovered they could get amazing performance
-using
-> > as hybrid threaded and forked-process model with apache - we might want
-to
-> > look into this. They even have a library for network-communication
-> > utilizing thier 'state threads' model.
->
-> I think ST is designed for network I/O-bound apps -- last I checked,
-> disk I/O will still block an entire ST process. While you can get around
-> that by using another process to do disk I/O, it sounds like ST won't be
-> that useful.
->
-> However, Chris KL. (I believe) raised the idea of using POSIX AIO for
-> PostgreSQL. Without having looked into it extensively, this technique
-> sounds promising. Perhaps someone who has looked into this further
-> (e.g. someone from Redhat) can comment?
->
-> Cheers,
->
-> Neil
->
-> --
-> Neil Conway <neilconway@rogers.com>
-> PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
->
-> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
->
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23430@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 22:58:30 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206060257.g562v0q28990@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206050433.g554XiN05245@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:57:00 -0400 (EDT)\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-
-Here is a summary of the responses to my Win32 roadmap. I hope this
-will allow further discussion.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-INSTALLER
----------
-Cygwin Setup.exe http://cygwin.com
-Nullsoft http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/
-
-GUI
----
-pgAdmin2 http://pgadmin.postgresql.org/pgadmin2.php?ContentID=1
-pgaccess http://pgaccess.org/
-Java admin (to be written)
-Dev-C++ admin (to be written) http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
-
-BINARY
-------
-
-
-FORK()
-
-cygwin fork() http://cygwin.com
-CreateProcess() and copy global area
-
-THREADING
-
-Posix threads
-Gnu pth http://www.gnu.org/software/pth/
-ST http://state-threads.sourceforge.net/docs/st.html
-(single-session multi-threading possible)
-(Posix AIO is possible)
-
-IPC
-
-Cygwin http://cygwin.com
-MinGW http://www.mingw.org/
-ACE http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/ACE.html
-APR http://apr.apache.org/
-Our own
-
-ENVIRONMENT
-
-Cygwin http://cygwin.com
-UnxUtils http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
-Write own initdb
-
-
-IMPLEMENTATIONS
----------------
-PostgreSQLe http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA023283/PostgreSQLe.html
-Dbexperts http://www.dbexperts.net/postgresql
-Connx http://www.connx.com/
-gborg http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/winpackage/projdisplay.php
-Interbase http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,23217,00.html
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23432@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 01:01:09 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23432@postgresql.org>\r
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- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) id g564xaS09100;\r
- Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:59:36 -0400 (EDT)\r
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206060459.g564xaS09100@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <129501c20d05$7a671a10$22c30191@comm.mot.com>\r
-To: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:59:36 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,\r
- pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL97 (25)]\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Igor Kovalenko wrote:
-> I think SGI gets amazing performance because they have very good (efficient)
-> synchronization primitives on SGI. Some proprietary light-weight mutexes.
-> Using threaded or mixed model just by itself is not going to do a miracle.
-> Threads will save you some context switch time, but that will probably
-> translate into lower CPU usage rather than performance boost. And if your
-> mutexes are not fast or awkwardly implemented (say Linux), it might be even
-> worse. Apache is not all that fast on Linux as on SGI, whatever model you
-> chose. I also doubt that purely threaded model would be slower than mixed
-> one.
-
-Let me throw out an idea. I have been mentioning full fork, light
-fork(copy globals only), and threading as possible solutions.
-
-Another idea uses neither threading nor copying. It is the old system
-we used before I removed exec() from our code. We used to pass the
-database name as an argument to an exec'ed postgres binary that
-continued with the database connection.
-
-We removed the exec, then started moving what we could into the
-postmaster so each backend didn't need to do the initialization.
-
-One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
-
- initialization()
- want for connection()
- fork backend()
-
-we do for Win32:
-
- want for connection()
- exec backend()
- initialization()
-
-It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
-CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
-know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
-lot of initialization.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
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-TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
-
-http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
-
-From janwieck@yahoo.com Thu Jun 6 09:40:20 2002
-Return-path: <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
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-From: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-Message-ID: <200206061335.g56DZFt26403@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206060459.g564xaS09100@candle.pha.pa.us> from Bruce Momjian\r
- at "Jun 6, 2002 00:59:36 am"\r
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:35:14 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,\r
- Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,\r
- pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
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-\r
-Bruce Momjian wrote:
->
-> Let me throw out an idea. I have been mentioning full fork, light
-> fork(copy globals only), and threading as possible solutions.
->
-> Another idea uses neither threading nor copying. It is the old system
-> we used before I removed exec() from our code. We used to pass the
-> database name as an argument to an exec'ed postgres binary that
-> continued with the database connection.
->
-> We removed the exec, then started moving what we could into the
-> postmaster so each backend didn't need to do the initialization.
->
-> One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
->
-> initialization()
-> want for connection()
-> fork backend()
->
-> we do for Win32:
->
-> want for connection()
-> exec backend()
-> initialization()
-
- Summarizes pretty much what we discussed Monday on the phone.
- Except that the postmaster still has to initialize the shared
- memory and other stuff. It's just that the backends and
- helper processes need to reinitialize themself (attach).
-
-> It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
-> CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
-> know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
-> lot of initialization.
-
- All I see so far is the reading of the postgresql.conf, the
- pg_hba.conf and the password files. Nothing fancy and the
- postmaster could easily write out a binary content only file
- that the backends then read, eliminating the parsing
- overhead.
-
- The bad news is that Tom is right. We did a terrible job in
- using the new side effect, that the shared memory segment is
- at the same address in all forked processes, after removing
- the need to reattach.
-
- In detail the XLog code, the FreeSpaceMap code and the
- "shared memory" hashtable code now use pointers, located in
- shared memory. For the XLog and FreeSpace code this is
- understandable, because they where developed under the fork()
- only model. But the dynahash code used offsets only until
- v7.1!
-
- All three (no claim that that's all) make it impossible to
- ever have someone attaching to the shared memory from the
- outside. So with these moves we made the shared memory a
- "Postmaster and children" only thing. Raises the question,
- why we need an IPC key at all any more.
-
- Anyhow, looks as if I can get that fork() vs. fork()+exec()
- feature done pretty soon. It'll be controlled by another
- Postmaster commandline switch. After cleaning up the mess I
- did to get it working quick, I'll provide a patch for
- discussion.
-
-
-Jan
-
---
-
-#======================================================================#
-# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
-# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
-#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
-
-
-
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206061506.g56F6IW10267@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206061335.g56DZFt26403@saturn.janwieck.net>\r
-To: Jan Wieck <janwieck@yahoo.com>\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:06:18 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: Igor Kovalenko <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>,\r
- Neil Conway <nconway@klamath.dyndns.org>, Jon Franz <coventry@one.net>,\r
- pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
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-\r
-Jan Wieck wrote:
-> > One solution is to return to that for Win32 only, so instead of doing:
-> >
-> > initialization()
-> > want for connection()
-> > fork backend()
-> >
-> > we do for Win32:
-> >
-> > want for connection()
-> > exec backend()
-> > initialization()
->
-> Summarizes pretty much what we discussed Monday on the phone.
-> Except that the postmaster still has to initialize the shared
-> memory and other stuff. It's just that the backends and
-> helper processes need to reinitialize themself (attach).
-
-Yes, obviously I simplified, and I do believe our optimizations are
-helping on Unix. It is just that I think for Win32 the fork is more
-harmful than removing those optimizations.
-
-One thing that may not have been clear is that we don't need to play
-with globals at all. We just pass whatever info we want to the child
-via command-line arguments, rather than shared memory.
-
-> > It wouldn't be hard to do. We would still do CreateProcess rather than
-> > CreateThread, but it eliminates the fork/threading issues. We don't
-> > know the database before the connection arrives, so we don't do a whole
-> > lot of initialization.
->
-> All I see so far is the reading of the postgresql.conf, the
-> pg_hba.conf and the password files. Nothing fancy and the
-> postmaster could easily write out a binary content only file
-> that the backends then read, eliminating the parsing
-> overhead.
-
-Yes, that is clearly possible. Another option is to just write out a
-no-comments, no-whitespace version of each file and just have the
-backends read those. The advantage is that we can use the same code to
-read them, and I don't think it would be any slower than a binary file.
-
-> The bad news is that Tom is right. We did a terrible job in
-> using the new side effect, that the shared memory segment is
-> at the same address in all forked processes, after removing
-> the need to reattach.
->
-> In detail the XLog code, the FreeSpaceMap code and the
-> "shared memory" hashtable code now use pointers, located in
-> shared memory. For the XLog and FreeSpace code this is
-> understandable, because they where developed under the fork()
-> only model. But the dynahash code used offsets only until
-> v7.1!
->
-> All three (no claim that that's all) make it impossible to
-> ever have someone attaching to the shared memory from the
-> outside. So with these moves we made the shared memory a
-> "Postmaster and children" only thing. Raises the question,
-> why we need an IPC key at all any more.
-
-Well, we could force shmat() to bind to the same address, but I suspect
-that might fail in some cases.
-
-> Anyhow, looks as if I can get that fork() vs. fork()+exec()
-> feature done pretty soon. It'll be controlled by another
-> Postmaster commandline switch. After cleaning up the mess I
-> did to get it working quick, I'll provide a patch for
-> discussion.
-
-Yes, very little impact. We then need someone to do some Win32 timings
-to see if things have improved. As Tom mentioned, we need some hard
-numbers for these things. In fact, I would like a Win32 test that takes
-our code and compares fork(), then exit(), with CreateProcess(), exit().
-It doesn't have create a db session, but I would like to see some
-timings to know what we are gaining. Heck, time CreateThread too and
-let's see what that shows.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23447@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 13:18:53 2002
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-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:11:12 +0200 (CEST)\r
-From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
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-Bruce Momjian writes:
-
-> Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-> using cygwin for this?
-
-We should probably get rid of using shell scripts for application programs
-altogether, for a number of reasons besides this one, such as the
-inability to properly handle input values with spaces, commas, etc. (we
-probably don't handle very long values either on some platforms), the
-inability to maintain open database connections so that createlang needs
-to prompt for the same password thrice, general portable scripting
-headaches, and the lack of internationalization facilities.
-
-I'd even volunteer to do this. Comments?
-
---
-Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23453@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 15:28:52 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206061757.g56Hv5D27106@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206061855500.838-100000@localhost.localdomain>\r
-To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:57:05 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-Peter Eisentraut wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian writes:
->
-> > Lots of our code requires a unix shell and utilities. Will we continue
-> > using cygwin for this?
->
-> We should probably get rid of using shell scripts for application programs
-> altogether, for a number of reasons besides this one, such as the
-> inability to properly handle input values with spaces, commas, etc. (we
-> probably don't handle very long values either on some platforms), the
-> inability to maintain open database connections so that createlang needs
-> to prompt for the same password thrice, general portable scripting
-> headaches, and the lack of internationalization facilities.
->
-> I'd even volunteer to do this. Comments?
-
-I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
-good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
-issues.
-
-What language where you thinking of using? C?
-
-Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
-PostgreSQLe didn't use the, it just did initdb, and the rest were done
-using a GUI. However, initdb would remain a problem. PostgreSQLe wrote
-its own.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
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-Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
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-From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-To: "Steve Howe" <howe@carcass.dhs.org>,\r
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-
-
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Steve Howe [mailto:howe@carcass.dhs.org]
-> Sent: 06 June 2002 02:37
-> To: Bruce Momjian
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> Hello Bruce,
->
-> Wednesday, June 5, 2002, 1:33:44 AM, you wrote:
->
-> BM> INSTALLER
-> BM> ---------
->
-> BM> We clearly need an installer that is zero-hassle for
-> users. We need
-> BM> to decide on a direction for this.
-> I suggest Nullsoft install system
-> (http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/). It's > real good and very
-> simple to use. I can help on this if you want.
-
-I think that a Windows Installer compatible package would be better as
-it would allow us to build the package as a merge module which others
-could use in their installers for their PostgreSQL based apps, allowing
-one installation to install everything they require easily and (more
-importantly) correctly. An example of this can be found in the psqlODBC
-installer.
-
-I can handle this if required.
-
-> BM> ENVIRONMENT
->
-> I also would like to empathize that probably a small GUI for
-> controlling the PostgreSQL service/application would be nice.
-
-I'm happy to add such code to pgAdmin - seems like the natural thing to
-do (to me at least!).
-
-Regards, Dave.
-
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-\r
-How about a SOAP interface and a web-based front end that provides the cross
-platform support? My company's TIBET framework would provide a solid
-foundation for this kind of admin suite. In fact, we're already in the
-planning stages on doing just that.
-
-ss
-
-Scott Shattuck
-Technical Pursuit Inc.
-
-
------ Original Message -----
-From: "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>
-To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>
-Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 11:42 AM
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port
-
-
-> Bruce Momjian writes:
->
-> > GUI
-> > ---
-> > pgAdmin2
-http://pgadmin.postgresql.org/pgadmin2.php?ContentID=1
-> > pgaccess http://pgaccess.org/
-> > Java admin (to be written)
-> > Dev-C++ admin (to be written)
-http://sourceforge.net/projects/dev-cpp/
->
-> Surely Unix folks would like a GUI as well?
->
-> --
-> Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
->
->
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-Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 00:27:59 +0200 (CEST)\r
-From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
-X-X-Sender: peter@localhost.localdomain\r
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <200206061757.g56Hv5D27106@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>\r
-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
-Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII\r
-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: ROr\r
-\r
-Bruce Momjian writes:
-
-> I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
-> good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
-> issues.
-
-My point is that it is not, for the reasons that I listed. Handling
-spaces is a small part of one of the several problems, there are problems
-with newlines, tabs, commas, slashes, quotes -- everytime you call sed or
-read you lose one character.
-
-> What language where you thinking of using? C?
-
-Yes, that way we can share code (pg_dumpall<->pg_dump, initdb<->postgres),
-use the established internationalization facilities, and use libpq
-directly in create* and drop*.
-
-> Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
-
-The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
-pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
-
---
-Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net
-
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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-
-From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Sat Jun 8 11:48:49 2002
-Return-path: <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
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-To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port \r
-In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain> \r
-References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>\r
-Comments: In-reply-to Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
- message dated "Sat, 08 Jun 2002 00:27:59 +0200"\r
-Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 11:48:20 -0400\r
-Message-ID: <13966.1023551300@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>\r
-Status: ROr\r
-\r
-Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net> writes:
->> Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
-
-> The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
-> pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
-
-I have been seriously considering converting pg_dumpall to C anyway,
-because it's already *very* messy, and I don't see any reasonable
-way to make it support dumping per-database and per-user config
-settings. (Do you really want to try to parse array values in a
-shell script?)
-
-(I'd actually consider making pg_dumpall a part of the pg_dump
-executable; then it could invoke pg_dump as a subroutine call...)
-
-If Peter's got the time/energy to convert 'em all, I'm for it.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23524@postgresql.org Sat Jun 8 17:48:57 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23524@postgresql.org>\r
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- Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:48:12 -0400 (EDT)\r
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Message-ID: <200206082148.g58LmCa13018@candle.pha.pa.us>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0206072008310.935-100000@localhost.localdomain>\r
-To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
-Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:48:12 -0400 (EDT)\r
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-\r
-Peter Eisentraut wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian writes:
->
-> > I know I have discouraged it because I think shell script language has a
-> > good toolset for those applications. I have fixed all the spacing
-> > issues.
->
-> My point is that it is not, for the reasons that I listed. Handling
-> spaces is a small part of one of the several problems, there are problems
-> with newlines, tabs, commas, slashes, quotes -- everytime you call sed or
-> read you lose one character.
->
-> > What language where you thinking of using? C?
->
-> Yes, that way we can share code (pg_dumpall<->pg_dump, initdb<->postgres),
-> use the established internationalization facilities, and use libpq
-> directly in create* and drop*.
->
-> > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
->
-> The utility of these programs is independent of the platform. If we think
-> pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
-
-I think the first two targets for C-ification would be pg_dumpall and
-initdb. The others have SQL equivalents. Maybe pg_ctl too.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 853-3000
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
- + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
-TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
-
-http://archives.postgresql.org
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23541@postgresql.org Sun Jun 9 07:10:14 2002
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-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
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-Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:38:26 +0100\r
-Message-ID: <D85C66DA59BA044EB96AB9683819CF610150D6@dogbert.vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Thread-Index: AcIPOqo6zyhIgICZRXi+W7OR5HfNigAZldCg\r
-From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
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-\r
-
-
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
-> Sent: 08 June 2002 22:48
-> To: Peter Eisentraut
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> >
-> > > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
-> >
-> > The utility of these programs is independent of the
-> platform. If we
-> > think pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
->
-> I think the first two targets for C-ification would be
-> pg_dumpall and initdb. The others have SQL equivalents.
-> Maybe pg_ctl too.
-
-I looked at this issue some time ago & came to the conclusion that the
-only scripts that Win32 really needed were pg_dumpall, initdb &
-initlocation.
-
-The others have SQL equivalents as you say, apart from pg_ctl which
-under Windows should probably (and generally is) be replaced by the SCM
-(Service Control Manager). The only thing that comes to mind that the
-SCM can't do is a reload.
-
-Regards, Dave.
-
----------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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- (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org)
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23406@postgresql.org Wed Jun 5 01:06:31 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23406@postgresql.org>\r
-Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])\r
- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g5556Vs08055\r
- for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 5 Jun 2002 01:06:31 -0400 (EDT)\r
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-MIME-Version: 1.0\r
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- charset="iso-8859-1"\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] Cooperation\r
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-Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 22:06:31 -0700\r
-Message-ID: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF1A@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
-Thread-Topic: Cooperation\r
-Thread-Index: AcIMTsGaRnYrKZMWTBSGbLPlP1vlAQ==\r
-From: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-To: <sogapj@fb.freeserve.ne.jp>, <ichiro@ichiro.org>, <tosiyuki@gol.com>\r
-cc: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
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-Status: RO\r
-\r
-I apologize for my English language message. I am unable to speak
-Japanese. We do have a native Japanese speaker here, who could be
-called upon if necessary.
-
-The PostgreSQL team is planning to do a native Win32 port. Perhaps you
-would like to help with the effort. In that way, your changes will get
-propagated back up the source code tree and you can gain the benefits
-from future development efforts without performing any work.
-
-We did a port to Win32 also, but your approach seems much better. We
-have very fat executables and you have a marvelous DLL approach.
-Probably, the way that you perform the operations is much better.
-
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23451@postgresql.org Thu Jun 6 15:09:15 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23451@postgresql.org>\r
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- by postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7083475AD1\r
- for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Thu, 6 Jun 2002 03:39:00 -0400 (EDT)\r
-Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:38:55 +0900\r
-From: ISHIKAWA Toshiyuki <t-ishikawa@astrodesign.co.jp>\r
-To: "Dann Corbit" <DCorbit@connx.com>\r
-cc: sogapj@fb.freeserve.ne.jp, ichiro@ichiro.org, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Cooperation\r
-Message-ID: <20020606163855.4d8f2be5.t-ishikawa@astrodesign.co.jp>\r
-In-Reply-To: <D90A5A6C612A39408103E6ECDD77B82920CF1A@voyager.corporate.connx.com>\r
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-Precedence: bulk\r
-Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-Dann Corbit wrote:
-
-> I apologize for my English language message. I am unable to speak
-> Japanese. We do have a native Japanese speaker here, who could be
-> called upon if necessary.
-
-There is no need to aplogize writing an e-mail in English.
-It's global standards, but some portion is a bit difficult
-to understand. Anyhow, we must firstly express our thanks
-for your interest in our project, though we are facing also
-hard obstacles as listed on the Web site.
-
-> The PostgreSQL team is planning to do a native Win32 port. Perhaps you
-> would like to help with the effort. In that way, your changes will get
-> propagated back up the source code tree and you can gain the benefits
-> from future development efforts without performing any work.
-
-It is nice to hear that the PostgreSQL development team has also working
-on this subject. Will you please illustrate the procedure more clearly how
-to we contribute our effort to your project. The last four words in the
-above clause mean that once we supply you with the changed source, then
-everything afterwords could be handled by the team? How the copy right
-will be dealt with?
-
-The development has been continued by the volunteer developers here,
-however, we have to admit that businesses (companies) are also involved
-to support those people providing time to work on the development,
-not to commercialization purpose but expecting some return, e.g. earning
-company's prestige. So, we have to regulate those backgrouds first based
-upon your proposal. We are positive to help you with our effort anyway,
-if things goes well.
-
-> We did a port to Win32 also, but your approach seems much better. We
-> have very fat executables and you have a marvelous DLL approach.
-> Probably, the way that you perform the operations is much better.
-
-Thanks.
-
-Toshi
-
-
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-
-From dpage@vale-housing.co.uk Sun Jun 9 06:38:29 2002
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-Thread-Topic: Roadmap for a Win32 port\r
-Thread-Index: AcIPOqo6zyhIgICZRXi+W7OR5HfNigAZldCg\r
-From: "Dave Page" <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>\r
-To: "Bruce Momjian" <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,\r
- "Peter Eisentraut" <peter_e@gmx.net>\r
-cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit\r
-X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by candle.pha.pa.us id g59AcSs05017\r
-Status: RO\r
-\r
-
-
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Bruce Momjian [mailto:pgman@candle.pha.pa.us]
-> Sent: 08 June 2002 22:48
-> To: Peter Eisentraut
-> Cc: PostgreSQL-development
-> Subject: Re: Roadmap for a Win32 port
->
->
-> >
-> > > Also, it seems Win32 doesn't need these scripts, except initdb.
-> >
-> > The utility of these programs is independent of the
-> platform. If we
-> > think pg_dumpall is not useful, then let's remove it.
->
-> I think the first two targets for C-ification would be
-> pg_dumpall and initdb. The others have SQL equivalents.
-> Maybe pg_ctl too.
-
-I looked at this issue some time ago & came to the conclusion that the
-only scripts that Win32 really needed were pg_dumpall, initdb &
-initlocation.
-
-The others have SQL equivalents as you say, apart from pg_ctl which
-under Windows should probably (and generally is) be replaced by the SCM
-(Service Control Manager). The only thing that comes to mind that the
-SCM can't do is a reload.
-
-Regards, Dave.
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23620@postgresql.org Tue Jun 11 10:20:54 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23620@postgresql.org>\r
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-To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports\r
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-\r
-Hello together
-
-i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
-PostgreSQL.
-
-During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
-and i've
-changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
-
-I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts are
-done.
-
-I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
-
-My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people and
-offer all the work
-to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because of
-all the discussions.
-
-What i've done in detail:
-- i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
-the forked and the
-threaded backend.
-- I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are based
-on pthreads now.
-- I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
-- I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
-- I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
-globals are controled with
-POSIX semaphores.
-- I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
-With pthreads I don't
-need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
-- Several minor changes.
-
-There is still some more work to do like fixing memory leaks or
-handling bad situations, but in general it's
-functional on NetWare.
-
-BTW: Is it possible to add some lines on the PostgreSQL webpage that
-there is a first beta of
-PostgreSQL for NetWare available and to offer a binary download for the
-NetWare version?
-
-Ulrich Neumann
-
-
-----------------------------------
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23641@postgresql.org Tue Jun 11 15:01:17 2002
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-From: "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com>\r
-To: "Ulrich Neumann" <U_Neumann@gne.de>, <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-References: <sd06231b.068@mail.gne.de>\r
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports\r
-Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:14:58 -0500\r
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-> Hello together
->
-> i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
-> PostgreSQL.
->
-> During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
-> and i've
-> changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
->
-> I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts are
-> done.
->
-> I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
-
-Very nice... I have patches for QNX6 which also involved redoing shared
-memory and sempahores stuff. It would make very good sense to intergate,
-especially since you managed to do something very close to what I wanted :)
-
-> My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people and
-> offer all the work
-> to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because of
-> all the discussions.
->
-> What i've done in detail:
-> - i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
-> the forked and the
-> threaded backend.
-> - I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are based
-> on pthreads now.
-> - I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
-
-Careful here. On certain systems (on many, I suspect) POSIX semantics for
-signals is NOT default. Enforcing POSIX semantics requires certain compile
-time switches which will also change behavior of various functions.
-
-> - I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
-> - I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
-> globals are controled with
-> POSIX semaphores.
-> - I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
-> With pthreads I don't
-> need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
-
-POSIX semaphores for what? I assume by the conext that you're talking about
-replacing SysV semaphores which are used to control access to shared memory.
-If that is the case, POSIX semaphores are not the best choice really. POSIX
-mutexes would be okay, but on SMP systems spinlocks (hardware TAS based
-macros or POSIX spinlocks) would probably be better anyway. Note that on
-most platforms spinlocks are used for that and SysV semaphores were just a
-'last resort' which had unacceptable performance and so I guess it was not
-used at all.
-
-Do you have your patch somewhere online?
-
--- igor
-
-
-
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M23662@postgresql.org Wed Jun 12 04:38:26 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M23662@postgresql.org>\r
-Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])\r
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-Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:35:24 +0200\r
-From: "Ulrich Neumann" <U_Neumann@gne.de>\r
-To: <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>\r
-Subject: Antw: Re: [HACKERS] Native Win32/OS2/BeOS/NetWare ports\r
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-\r
-Hi Igor,
-
-Thanks for your information.
-
-I was aware of the "signal" problems and i've done it with thread based
-signals
-This part is functional on my platform but it isn't fully cooked.
-Another problem
-is to make this part portable.
-
-Your assumption to replace SysV semaphores with POSIX semaphores is
-correct.
-My first guess was to use mutexes instead of semaphores at all because
-the
-way semaphores are used in Postgres is more something like a "mutex",
-but only semaphores worked for me at this time because the underlying
-C Library had some problems with mutexes and spinlocks. (I'm also
-working on a new C Library for a future OS).
-
-Actually I don't have my code downloadable somewhere because the code
-doesn't look very nice in some parts. There is also temporary debug
-code
-in it right now. The best I think is to send it to you via email. If
-this is OK
-please give me a short notice or send an email to me and I'll send you
-a
-copy.
-
-Ulrich
-
->>> "Igor Kovalenko" <Igor.Kovalenko@motorola.com> 11.06.2002 20:14:58
->>>
-> Hello together
->
-> i've seen a lot of discussion about a native win32/OS2/BEOS port of
-> PostgreSQL.
->
-> During the last months i've ported PostgreSQL over to Novell NetWare
-> and i've
-> changed the code that I use pthreads instead of fork() now.
->
-> I had a lot of work with the variables and cleanup but mayor parts
-are
-> done.
->
-> I would appreciate if we could combine this work.
-
-Very nice... I have patches for QNX6 which also involved redoing
-shared
-memory and sempahores stuff. It would make very good sense to
-intergate,
-especially since you managed to do something very close to what I
-wanted :)
-
-> My plan was to finish this port, discuss the port with other people
-and
-> offer all the work
-> to the PostgreSQL source tree, but now i'm jumping in here because
-of
-> all the discussions.
->
-> What i've done in detail:
-> - i've defined #USE_PTHREADS in pg_config.h to differentiate between
-> the forked and the
-> threaded backend.
-> - I've added several parts in postmaster.c so all functions are
-based
-> on pthreads now.
-> - I've changed the signal handling because signals are process based
-
-Careful here. On certain systems (on many, I suspect) POSIX semantics
-for
-signals is NOT default. Enforcing POSIX semantics requires certain
-compile
-time switches which will also change behavior of various functions.
-
-> - I've changed code in ipc.c to have a clean shutdown of threads
-> - I've written some functions to switch the global variables. The
-> globals are controled with
-> POSIX semaphores.
-> - I've written a new implementation of shared memory and semaphores-
-> With pthreads I don't
-> need real shared memory any more and i'm using POSIX semaphores now
-
-POSIX semaphores for what? I assume by the conext that you're talking
-about
-replacing SysV semaphores which are used to control access to shared
-memory.
-If that is the case, POSIX semaphores are not the best choice really.
-POSIX
-mutexes would be okay, but on SMP systems spinlocks (hardware TAS
-based
-macros or POSIX spinlocks) would probably be better anyway. Note that
-on
-most platforms spinlocks are used for that and SysV semaphores were
-just a
-'last resort' which had unacceptable performance and so I guess it was
-not
-used at all.
-
-Do you have your patch somewhere online?
-
--- igor
-
-
-
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-broadcast)---------------------------
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-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M28769@postgresql.org Thu Sep 12 13:30:45 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M28769@postgresql.org>
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-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:29:20 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-cc: "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>,
- Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>, Dave Page <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>,
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
-References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209120945260.10924-100000@css120.ihs.com> <3D80C847.1070000@mascari.com>
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-
-I wrote:
-> scott.marlowe wrote:
- >>
->> I wouldn't assume that. It's been years since I tested it, but back
->> then, the command line and all program I used could see the link
->> created by ln that came with the resource kit. They were distinctly
->> different from the shortcut type of links, in that they seems
->> transparent like short cuts in unix generally are.
->>
->> Do you have the resource kit or the gnu utils from it?
->
->
-> The situation appears to be this:
->
-> 1. Soft links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) as Reparse Points via the
-> DeviceIoControl() function for any application using the standard C
-> library routines.
->
-> 2. Soft links are available on any filesystem under 95/98/ME/NT4/2K/XP
-> as OLE streams (.lnk files) for Shell-aware applications.
->
-> 3. Hard links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) via the CreateHardLink() API.
-
-<snip>
-
-> 4. Hard links are available on NTFS (NT3.1/NT4) via the BackupWrite()
-> API by writing a special stream to the NTFS.
-
-I also believe (I could be wrong) that for directories, the only
-two methods of links are the Soft link methods above. So PGXLOG
-cannot use soft links on a non-XP/2K machine unless it is
-"Shell-Aware". For example, in a cygwin bash command window:
-
-mkdir dir1
-ln dir1 dir2 <- Error using Cygwin implementation
-ln -s dir1 dir2 <- Creates a Shell short-cut (NT4)
-echo "Hello" > dir1/test.txt
-cat dir2/test.txt
-"Hello" <- Cygwin's cat(bash?) is shell short-cut aware
-
-Now, in a Windows NT command prompt:
-
-notepad dir2\test.txt <- Notepad can't find file
-notepad dir2.lnk <- Displays link contents
-
-That means for a native port with a different PGXLOG directory
-running on NT4, the only choice *using links* is to make the
-native port shell short-cut aware.
-
-I could be wrong but I don't think so.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
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-From mascarm@mascari.com Thu Sep 12 13:01:55 2002
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-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:00:55 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: "scott.marlowe" <scott.marlowe@ihs.com>
-cc: Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,
- Dave Page
- <dpage@vale-housing.co.uk>,
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL
- Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
-References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0209120945260.10924-100000@css120.ihs.com>
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-
-scott.marlowe wrote:
-> On Fri, 13 Sep 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
- >
->>Would it be correct to say that the 'ln' command in the MS Resource Kit
->>creates this kind of shortcut too, as the Reparse Points feature doesn't
->>seem to be possible under NT4?
->
->
-> I wouldn't assume that. It's been years since I tested it, but back then,
-> the command line and all program I used could see the link created by ln
-> that came with the resource kit. They were distinctly different from the
-> shortcut type of links, in that they seems transparent like short cuts in
-> unix generally are.
->
-> Do you have the resource kit or the gnu utils from it?
-
-The situation appears to be this:
-
-1. Soft links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) as Reparse Points
-via the DeviceIoControl() function for any application using the
-standard C library routines.
-
-2. Soft links are available on any filesystem under
-95/98/ME/NT4/2K/XP as OLE streams (.lnk files) for Shell-aware
-applications.
-
-3. Hard links are available on NTFS 5 (2K/XP) via the
-CreateHardLink() API.
-
-See:
-
-http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createhardlink.asp
-
-4. Hard links are available on NTFS (NT3.1/NT4) via the
-BackupWrite() API by writing a special stream to the NTFS.
-
-Example:
-
-http://www.mvps.org/win32/ntfs/lnw.cpp
-
-The cygwin implementation of link():
-
-http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/src/winsup/cygwin/syscalls.cc?rev=1.149.2.23&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup&cvsroot=src
-
-1. Will use CreateHardLink() if on 2K/XP
-2. Will try to use the BackupWrite() method
-3. Failing #2 will just copy the file
-
-See how fun Microsoft makes things?
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M28774@postgresql.org Thu Sep 12 15:12:54 2002
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-To: Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net>
-cc: Justin Clift <justin@postgresql.org>,
- PostgreSQL Hackers Mailing List <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PGXLOG variable worthwhile?
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-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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-Curt Sampson <cjs@cynic.net> writes:
-> On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Justin Clift wrote:
->> Am just wondering if we've ever considered adding a PGXLOG environment
->> variable that would point to the pg_xlog directory?
-
-> IMHO, a much better way to support this is to put this information into
-> the config file. That way it can't easily change when you happen to, say,
-> start postgres in the wrong window.
-
-Yes. We rejected environment-variable-based xlog location for reasons
-that apply equally well to Windows. The xlog location *must* be stored
-in a physical file in the data directory; anything else is too unsafe.
-The current technology for that is a symlink.
-
-While it doesn't have to be a symlink as opposed to some sort of config
-file, I don't have the slightest problem with saying that we don't
-support relocation of xlog on older Windoid platforms.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
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-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:07:22 -0500
-From: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-Message-ID: <20020919050722.GC15352@rice.edu>
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- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
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-On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
-
-> Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
-> accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
-> unlink?
-
-I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
-
-Ross
-
-
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-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:23:45 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209190001.g8J01gG13849@candle.pha.pa.us>
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-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> I am working with several groups getting the Win32 port ready for 7.4
-> and I have a few questions:
->
-> What is the standard workaround for the fact that rename() isn't atomic
-> on Win32? Do we need to create our own locking around the
-> reading/writing of files that are normally updated in place using
-> rename()?
-
-Visual C++ comes with the source to Microsoft's C library:
-
-rename() calls MoveFile() which will error if:
-
-1. The target file exists
-2. The source file is in use
-
-MoveFileEx() (not available on 95/98) can overwrite the target
-file if it exists. The Apache APR portability library uses
-MoveFileEx() to rename files if under NT/XP/2K vs. a sequence of :
-
-1. CreateFile() to test for target file existence
-2. DeleteFile() to remove the target file
-3. MoveFile() to rename the old file to new
-
-under Windows 95/98. Of course, some other process could create
-the target file between 2 and 3, so their rename() would just
-error out in that situation. I haven't tested it, but I recall
-reading somewhere that MoveFileEx() has the ability to rename an
-opened file. I'm 99% sure MoveFile() will fail if the source
-file is open.
-
->
-> Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
-> accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
-> unlink?
->
-
-unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
-
-1. The target file is in use
-
-CreateFile() has the option:
-
-FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
-
-which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
-behavior.
-
-Hope that helps,
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29090@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:23:40 2002
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-From: "Christopher Kings-Lynne" <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
-To: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>
-cc: "PostgreSQL-development" <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:24:01 +0800
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-> On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
->
-> > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
-> > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
-> > unlink?
->
-> I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
-
-Yeah - the windows filesystem is pretty poor when it comes to multiuser
-access. That's why even as administrator I cannot delete borked files and
-people's profiles and stuff off our NT server - the files are always 'in
-use'. Even if you kick all users off, reboot the machine, do whatever.
-It's terrible.
-
-Chris
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29092@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 01:32:51 2002
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-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 01:31:19 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Christopher Kings-Lynne <chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
-cc: "Ross J. Reedstrom" <reedstrm@rice.edu>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <GNELIHDDFBOCMGBFGEFOGEFCCEAA.chriskl@familyhealth.com.au>
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-
-Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:
->>On Wed, Sep 18, 2002 at 08:01:42PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
->>
->>
->>>Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
->>>accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
->>>unlink?
->>
->>I'm pretty sure it errors with 'file in use'. Pretty ugly, huh?
->
->
-> Yeah - the windows filesystem is pretty poor when it comes to multiuser
-> access. That's why even as administrator I cannot delete borked files and
-> people's profiles and stuff off our NT server - the files are always 'in
-> use'. Even if you kick all users off, reboot the machine, do whatever.
-> It's terrible.
- >
- > Chris
- >
-
-Yep. That's why often it requires rebooting to uninstall
-software. How can the installer remove itself? Under Windows
-95/98/ME, you have to manually add entries to WININIT.INI. With
-Windows NT/XP/2K, MoveFileEx() with a NULL target and the
-MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT flag will add the appropriate
-entries into the system registry so that the next time the
-machine reboots it will remove the files specified. Its a real
-pain and a real hack of an OS.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29135@postgresql.org Thu Sep 19 16:26:02 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209192024.g8JKO1g10337@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D895F60.4010902@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:24:01 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > I am working with several groups getting the Win32 port ready for 7.4
-> > and I have a few questions:
-> >
-> > What is the standard workaround for the fact that rename() isn't atomic
-> > on Win32? Do we need to create our own locking around the
-> > reading/writing of files that are normally updated in place using
-> > rename()?
->
-> Visual C++ comes with the source to Microsoft's C library:
->
-> rename() calls MoveFile() which will error if:
->
-> 1. The target file exists
-> 2. The source file is in use
->
-> MoveFileEx() (not available on 95/98) can overwrite the target
-> file if it exists. The Apache APR portability library uses
-> MoveFileEx() to rename files if under NT/XP/2K vs. a sequence of :
->
-> 1. CreateFile() to test for target file existence
-> 2. DeleteFile() to remove the target file
-> 3. MoveFile() to rename the old file to new
->
-> under Windows 95/98. Of course, some other process could create
-> the target file between 2 and 3, so their rename() would just
-> error out in that situation. I haven't tested it, but I recall
-> reading somewhere that MoveFileEx() has the ability to rename an
-> opened file. I'm 99% sure MoveFile() will fail if the source
-> file is open.
-
-OK, I downloaded APR and see in apr_file_rename():
-
- if (MoveFileEx(frompath, topath, MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING |
- MOVEFILE_COPY_ALLOWED))
-
-
-Looking at the entire APR function, they have lots of tests so it works
-on Win9X and wide characters. I think we will just use the APR as a
-guide in implementing the things we need. I think MoveFileEx() is the
-proper way to go; any other solution requires loop tests for rename.
-
-I see the MoveFileEx manual page at:
-
- http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/movefile.asp
-
-> > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
-> > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
-> > unlink?
-> >
->
-> unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
->
-> 1. The target file is in use
->
-> CreateFile() has the option:
->
-> FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
->
-> which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
-> behavior.
-
-No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
-the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
-loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
-apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-From pgman Thu Sep 19 22:50:41 2002
-Return-path: <pgman>
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- by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) id g8K2ofr29042;
- Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman>
-Message-ID: <200209200250.g8K2ofr29042@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <200209192024.g8JKO1g10337@candle.pha.pa.us>
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL99 (25)]
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-Status: RO
-
-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > > Second, when you unlink() a file on Win32, do applications continue
-> > > accessing the old file contents if they had the file open before the
-> > > unlink?
-> > >
-> >
-> > unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
-> >
-> > 1. The target file is in use
-> >
-> > CreateFile() has the option:
-> >
-> > FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
-> >
-> > which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
-> > behavior.
->
-> No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
-> the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
-> loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
-> apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
-
-This says that if the target is in use, it is overwritten:
-
- http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;q140570&
-
-While I think that is good news, does it open the problem of other
-readers reading partial updates to the file and therefore seeing
-garbage. Not sure how to handle that, nor am I even sure how I would
-test it.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
-From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 00:02:33 2002
-Return-path: <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-Message-ID: <3D8A9DAD.5040500@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:01:49 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209200250.g8K2ofr29042@candle.pha.pa.us>
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-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
->>>
->>>unlink() just calls DeleteFile() which will error if:
->>>
->>>1. The target file is in use
->>>
->>>CreateFile() has the option:
->>>
->>>FILE_FLAG_DELETE_ON_CLOSE
->>>
->>>which might be able to be used to simulate traditional unlink()
->>>behavior.
->>
->>No, that flag isn't going to help us. I wonder what MoveFileEx does if
->>the target file exists _and_ is open by another user? I don't see any
->>loop in that Win32 rename() routine, and I looked at the Unix version of
->>apr_file_rename and its just a straight rename() call.
->
->
-> This says that if the target is in use, it is overwritten:
->
-> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=KB;EN-US;q140570&
-
-I read the article and did not come away with that conclusion.
-The article describes using the MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT
-flag, which was created for the express purpose of allowing a
-SETUP.EXE to remove itself, or rather tell Windows to remove it
-on the next reboot. Also, if you want the Win32 port to run in
-95/98/ME, you can't rely on MoveFileEx(), you have to use
-MoveFile().
-
-I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
-don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
-TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
-single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29177@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 00:06:31 2002
-Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M29177@postgresql.org>
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8A9DAD.5040500@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:05:27 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> I read the article and did not come away with that conclusion.
-> The article describes using the MOVEFILE_DELAY_UNTIL_REBOOT
-> flag, which was created for the express purpose of allowing a
-> SETUP.EXE to remove itself, or rather tell Windows to remove it
-> on the next reboot. Also, if you want the Win32 port to run in
-> 95/98/ME, you can't rely on MoveFileEx(), you have to use
-> MoveFile().
->
-> I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
-> don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
-> TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
-> single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
-
-I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
-written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
-actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
-are adding/removing them.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29179@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 00:33:22 2002
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-Message-ID: <3D8AA4B2.8090507@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 00:31:46 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us>
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-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> Mike Mascari wrote:
->
->>I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But
->>don't get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
->>TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a
->>single DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
->
->
-> I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
-> written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
-> actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
-> are adding/removing them.
->
-
-OK. So you want to test:
-
-1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-3. Process 1 renames "foo" to "bar"
-4. Process 2 can safely read from its open file handle
-
-Is that what you want tested? I have a small Win32 app ready to
-test. Just let me know the scenarios...
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29180@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:02:47 2002
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:01:03 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209200405.g8K45RV12655@candle.pha.pa.us> <3D8AA4B2.8090507@mascari.com>
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-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
->
->> Mike Mascari wrote:
->>
->>> I will do some testing with concurrency and let you know. But don't
->>> get your hopes up. This is one of the many advantages that
->>> TABLESPACEs have when more than one relation is stored in a single
->>> DATAFILE. There was Oracle for MS-DOS, after all..
->>
->>
->>
->> I was focusing on handling of pg_pwd and other config file that are
->> written by various backend while other backends are reading them. The
->> actual data files should be OK because we have an exclusive lock when we
->> are adding/removing them.
->>
->
-> OK. So you want to test:
->
-> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> 3. Process 1 renames "foo" to "bar"
-> 4. Process 2 can safely read from its open file handle
-
-Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
-way for:
-
-1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-3. Process 1 creates "bar"
-4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
-and get the original "foo" data.
-
-Is that correct?
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29181@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 01:30:05 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209200529.g8K5TYr20440@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8AAB8F.8010001@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:29:33 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
-> way for:
->
-> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> 3. Process 1 creates "bar"
-> 4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> 5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
-> and get the original "foo" data.
-
-Yep, that's it.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 01:35:23 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-MIME-Version: 1.0
-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209200529.g8K5TYr20440@candle.pha.pa.us>
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-
-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> Mike Mascari wrote:
->
->>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
->>way for:
->>
->>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
->>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
->>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
->>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
->>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
->>and get the original "foo" data.
->
->
-> Yep, that's it.
->
-
-So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
-returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
-I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
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-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8AB39B.80708@mascari.com>
-Message-ID: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-
-On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > Mike Mascari wrote:
-> >
-> >>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
-> >>way for:
-> >>
-> >>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> >>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> >>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
-> >>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> >>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
-> >>and get the original "foo" data.
-> >
-> >
-> > Yep, that's it.
-> >
->
-> So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
-> returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
-> I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
-
-Does a sequence like
-Process 1 opens "foo"
-Process 2 opens "foo"
-Process 1 creates "bar"
-Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
- - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
-Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-Process 2 continues reading
-let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
-you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
-various <something>s)
-
-
-
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-From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 02:04:41 2002
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 02:03:43 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development
- <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-
-Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
->>Bruce Momjian wrote:
->>>Mike Mascari wrote:
->>>>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
->>>>way for:
->>>>
->>>>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
->>>>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
->>>>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
->>>>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
->>>>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
->>>>and get the original "foo" data.
->>>
->>>
->>>Yep, that's it.
->>>
->>
->>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
->>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
->>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
->
->
-> Does a sequence like
-> Process 1 opens "foo"
-> Process 2 opens "foo"
-> Process 1 creates "bar"
-> Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
-> - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
-> Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> Process 2 continues reading
-> let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
-> you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
-> various <something>s)
-
-Yes! Indeed that does work.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29185@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 02:14:29 2002
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-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:14:14 -0700 (PDT)
-From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8ABA3F.6030002@mascari.com>
-Message-ID: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-
-On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-
-> Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-> >>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
-> >>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
-> >>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
-> >
-> >
-> > Does a sequence like
-> > Process 1 opens "foo"
-> > Process 2 opens "foo"
-> > Process 1 creates "bar"
-> > Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
-> > - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
-> > Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> > Process 2 continues reading
-> > let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
-> > you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
-> > various <something>s)
->
-> Yes! Indeed that does work.
-
-Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
-Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
-vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
-have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
-
-
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-From mascarm@mascari.com Fri Sep 20 03:14:03 2002
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 03:13:26 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development
- <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-
-Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
->>
->>Yes! Indeed that does work.
->
->
-> Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
-> Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
-> vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
-> have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
-
-Well, here's the test:
-
-foo.txt contains "This is FOO!"
-bar.txt contains "This is BAR!"
-
-Process 1 opens foo.txt
-Process 2 opens foo.txt
-Process 1 sleeps 7.5 seconds
-Process 2 sleeps 15 seconds
-Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "foo.txt" to "foo2.txt"
-Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "bar.txt" to "foo.txt"
-Process 1 uses DeleteFile() to remove "foo2.txt"
-Process 2 awakens and displays "This is FOO!"
-
-On the filesystem, we then have:
-
-foo.txt containing "This is BAR!"
-
-The good news is that this works fine under NT 4 using just
-MoveFile(). The bad news is that it requires the files be opened
-using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag set. The C
-library which ships with Visual C++ 6 ultimately calls
-CreateFile() via fopen() but with no opportunity through the
-standard C library routines to use the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag.
-And the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag cannot be used under Windows
-95/98 (Bad Parameter). Which means, on those platforms, there
-still doesn't appear to be a solution. Under NT/XP/2K,
-AllocateFile() will have to modified to call CreateFile()
-instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
-behaves similarly to 95/98.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29205@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 10:36:48 2002
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-To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>, Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-References: <20020919224718.H36366-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-Comments: In-reply-to Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
- message dated "Thu, 19 Sep 2002 22:50:36 -0700"
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:27:52 -0400
-Message-ID: <16067.1032532072@sss.pgh.pa.us>
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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-
-Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com> writes:
-> ... let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
-> you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
-> various <something>s)
-
-That is the hard part. Mike's description omitted one crucial step:
-
-6. The old "foo" goes away when the last open file handle for it is
-closed.
-
-I doubt there is any practical way for Postgres to cause that to happen
-if the OS itself does not have any support for it.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29206@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 10:37:53 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201431.g8KEVMg13344@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8ACA96.80504@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:31:22 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-
-I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
-issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
-
-I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
-
- http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
-
-but I don't understand it:
-
- FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
- the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-> >>
-> >>Yes! Indeed that does work.
-> >
-> >
-> > Thinking back, I think that may still fail on Win95 (using MoveFile).
-> > Once in the past I had to work on (un)installers for Win* and I
-> > vaguely remember Win95 being more strict than Win98 but that may just
-> > have been with moving the executable you're currently running.
->
-> Well, here's the test:
->
-> foo.txt contains "This is FOO!"
-> bar.txt contains "This is BAR!"
->
-> Process 1 opens foo.txt
-> Process 2 opens foo.txt
-> Process 1 sleeps 7.5 seconds
-> Process 2 sleeps 15 seconds
-> Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "foo.txt" to "foo2.txt"
-> Process 1 uses MoveFile() to rename "bar.txt" to "foo.txt"
-> Process 1 uses DeleteFile() to remove "foo2.txt"
-> Process 2 awakens and displays "This is FOO!"
->
-> On the filesystem, we then have:
->
-> foo.txt containing "This is BAR!"
->
-> The good news is that this works fine under NT 4 using just
-> MoveFile(). The bad news is that it requires the files be opened
-> using CreateFile() with the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag set. The C
-> library which ships with Visual C++ 6 ultimately calls
-> CreateFile() via fopen() but with no opportunity through the
-> standard C library routines to use the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag.
-> And the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag cannot be used under Windows
-> 95/98 (Bad Parameter). Which means, on those platforms, there
-> still doesn't appear to be a solution. Under NT/XP/2K,
-> AllocateFile() will have to modified to call CreateFile()
-> instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
-> behaves similarly to 95/98.
->
-> Mike Mascari
-> mascarm@mascari.com
->
->
->
->
->
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-> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
->
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:57:00 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <200209201431.g8KEVMg13344@candle.pha.pa.us>
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-
-Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
-> issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
->
-> I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
->
-> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
->
-> but I don't understand it:
->
-> FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
-> the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
-
-I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
-that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
-FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
-fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
-one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
-
-
-
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201505.g8KF5ch17250@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8B373C.7060102@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
-> > issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
-> >
-> > I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
-> >
-> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
-> >
-> > but I don't understand it:
-> >
-> > FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
-> > the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
->
-> I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
-> that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
-> FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
-> fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
-> one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
-
-I don't understand what that gets us.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
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-From sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com Fri Sep 20 11:29:09 2002
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
-From: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8B373C.7060102@mascari.com>
-Message-ID: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-
-> Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> > I don't think we are not going to be supporting Win9X so there isn't an
-> > issue there. We will be supporting Win2000/NT/XP.
-> >
-> > I don't understand FILE_SHARE_DELETE. I read the description at:
-> >
-> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/fileio/base/createfile.asp
-> >
-> > but I don't understand it:
-> >
-> > FILE_SHARE_DELETE - Windows NT/2000/XP: Subsequent open operations on
-> > the object will succeed only if delete access is requested.
->
-> I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
-> that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
-> FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
-> fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
-> one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
-
-The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
-and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
-from it?
-
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29216@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:45:47 2002
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-Message-ID: <3D8B4087.AF0CD803@Yahoo.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:36:39 -0400
-From: Jan Wieck <JanWieck@Yahoo.com>
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-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <20020919230827.A36505-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com> <3D8ACA96.80504@mascari.com>
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-Mike Mascari wrote:
-
-> instead of fopen(). I'm not sure about ME, but I suspect it
-> behaves similarly to 95/98.
-
-I just checked with Katie and the good news (tm) is that the Win32 port
-we did here at PeerDirect doesn't support 95/98 and ME anyway. It does
-support NT4, 2000 and XP. So don't bother.
-
-
-Jan
-
---
-
-#======================================================================#
-# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
-# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
-#================================================== JanWieck@Yahoo.com #
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29222@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:59:16 2002
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-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:54:52 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
-cc: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
->
->
->>I think that's a rather poor description. I think it just means
->>that if the file is opened once via CreateFile() with
->>FILE_SHARE_DELETE, then any subsequent CreateFile() calls will
->>fail unless they too have FILE_SHARE_DELETE. In other words, if
->>one of us can delete this file while its open, any of us can.
->
->
-> The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
-> and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
-> from it?
-
-Yes. I just tested it and it worked. I'll test Bruce's scenario
-as well:
-
-foo contains: "FOO"
-bar contains: "BAR"
-
-1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
-4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
-6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
-8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
-
-I think the thing to worry about is a race condition between the
-two MoveFile() attempts. A very ugly hack would be to loop in a
-CreateFile() in an attempt to open "foo", giving up if the error
-is not a NOT EXISTS error code.
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29230@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 13:12:45 2002
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-Message-ID: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:27:32 -0400
-From: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
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-To: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-References: <20020920080949.H40440-100000@megazone23.bigpanda.com> <3D8B44CC.6070802@mascari.com>
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-
-I wrote:
-> Stephan Szabo wrote:
- >>
->> The question is, what happens if two people have the file open
->> and one goes and tries to delete it? Can the other still read
->> from it?
->
-> Yes. I just tested it and it worked. I'll test Bruce's scenario as well:
->
-> foo contains: "FOO"
-> bar contains: "BAR"
->
-> 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> 3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
-> 4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-> 5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
-> 6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-> 7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
-> 8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
-
-Process 1: "FOO"
-Process 2: "FOO"
-Process 3: Error - File does not exist
-Process 4: "BAR"
-
-Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
-unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
-two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
-the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
-that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
-are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
-
-Mike Mascari
-mascarm@mascari.com
-
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29235@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 13:38:05 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201731.g8KHVRu17060@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:31:27 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
- Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
-> unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
-> two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
-> the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
-> that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
-> are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
-
-Yes, those files are only opened for a brief moment. They are not held
-open.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201753.g8KHrnp21564@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questions
-In-Reply-To: <3D8B4C74.2050708@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:53:49 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>,
- Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>
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-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> > foo contains: "FOO"
-> > bar contains: "BAR"
-> >
-> > 1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> > 2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> > 3. Process 1 calls MoveFile("foo", "foo2");
-> > 4. Process 3 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-> > 5. Process 1 calls MoveFile("bar", "foo");
-> > 6. Process 4 opens "foo" <- Successful?
-> > 7. Process 1 calls DeleteFile("foo2");
-> > 8. Process 1, 2, 3, 4 all read from their respective handles.
->
-> Process 1: "FOO"
-> Process 2: "FOO"
-> Process 3: Error - File does not exist
-> Process 4: "BAR"
->
-> Its interesting in that it allows for Unix-style rename() and
-> unlink() behavior, but with a race condition. Without Stephan's
-> two MoveFile() trick and the FILE_SHARE_DELETE flag, however,
-> the result would be Access Denied. Are the places in the backend
-> that use rename() and unlink() renaming and unlinking files that
-> are only opened for a brief moment by other backends?
-
-I think we are better off looping over
-MoveFileEx(MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING) until the file isn't opened by
-anyone. That localizes the changes to rename only and not out to all
-the opens.
-
-The open failure loops when the file isn't there seem much worse.
-
-I am a little concerned about starving the rename when there is a lot of
-activity but I don't see a better solution.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29214@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 11:31:33 2002
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- Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400 (EDT)
-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
-In-Reply-To: <3D8ABA3F.6030002@mascari.com>
-To: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-
-It is good that moving the file out of the way works, but it doesn't
-completely solve the problem.
-
-What we have now with Unix rename is ideal:
-
- 1) old opens continue seeing the old contents
- 2) new opens see the new contents
- 3) the file always exists under the fixed name
-
-We have that with MoveFileEx(), but we have to loop over the routine
-until is succeeds. If we move the old file out of the way, we loose the
-ability to know the file always exists and then we have to loop over
-open() until is succeeds.
-
-I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
-We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
-that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
-file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
-access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-Mike Mascari wrote:
-> Stephan Szabo wrote:
-> > On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Mike Mascari wrote:
-> >>Bruce Momjian wrote:
-> >>>Mike Mascari wrote:
-> >>>>Actually, looking at the pg_pwd code, you want to determine a
-> >>>>way for:
-> >>>>
-> >>>>1. Process 1 opens "foo"
-> >>>>2. Process 2 opens "foo"
-> >>>>3. Process 1 creates "bar"
-> >>>>4. Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> >>>>5. Process 2 can continue to read data from the open file handle
-> >>>>and get the original "foo" data.
-> >>>
-> >>>
-> >>>Yep, that's it.
-> >>>
-> >>
-> >>So far, MoveFileEx("foo", "bar", MOVEFILE_REPLACE_EXISTING)
-> >>returns "Access Denied" when Process 1 attempts the rename. But
-> >>I'm continuing to investigate the possibilities...
-> >
-> >
-> > Does a sequence like
-> > Process 1 opens "foo"
-> > Process 2 opens "foo"
-> > Process 1 creates "bar"
-> > Process 1 renames "foo" to <something>
-> > - where something is generated to not overlap an existing file
-> > Process 1 renames "bar" to "foo"
-> > Process 2 continues reading
-> > let you do the replace and keep reading (at the penalty that
-> > you've now got to have a way to know when to remove the
-> > various <something>s)
->
-> Yes! Indeed that does work.
->
-> Mike Mascari
-> mascarm@mascari.com
->
->
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-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
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-From tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us Fri Sep 20 11:50:26 2002
-Return-path: <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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-To: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
- Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
-In-Reply-To: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
-References: <200209201504.g8KF4rj17150@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Comments: In-reply-to Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
- message dated "Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:04:53 -0400"
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:50:17 -0400
-Message-ID: <16739.1032537017@sss.pgh.pa.us>
-From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
-Status: ROr
-
-Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
-> I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
-> We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
-> that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
-> file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
-> access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
-
-Surely you're not evaluating this on the assumption that the pg_shadow
-triggers are the only places that use rename() ?
-
-I see other places in pgstat and relcache that expect rename() to work
-per Unix spec.
-
- regards, tom lane
-
-From pgsql-hackers-owner+M29223@postgresql.org Fri Sep 20 12:04:21 2002
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-From: Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Message-ID: <200209201556.g8KFu2k28023@candle.pha.pa.us>
-Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Win32 rename()/unlink() questionst
-In-Reply-To: <16739.1032537017@sss.pgh.pa.us>
-To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:56:02 -0400 (EDT)
-cc: Mike Mascari <mascarm@mascari.com>,
- Stephan Szabo <sszabo@megazone23.bigpanda.com>,
- PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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-
-Tom Lane wrote:
-> Bruce Momjian <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us> writes:
-> > I think we may be best just looping on MoveFileEx() until is succeeds.
-> > We do the pg_pwd writes while holding an exclusive lock on pg_shadow so
-> > that will guarantee that no one else will slip an old version of the
-> > file in after we have written it. However, it also prevents pg_shadow
-> > access while we are doing the looping. Yuck.
->
-> Surely you're not evaluating this on the assumption that the pg_shadow
-> triggers are the only places that use rename() ?
->
-> I see other places in pgstat and relcache that expect rename() to work
-> per Unix spec.
-
-Yes, I know there are others but I think we will need _a_ rename that
-works 100% and then replace that in all Win32 rename cases.
-
-Given what I have seen, I think a single rename with a loop that uses
-MoveFileEx() may be our best bet. It is localized, doesn't affect the
-open() code, and should work well. The only downside is that under
-heavy read activity the loop will loop around a few times but I just
-don't see another solution.
-
-I was initially concerned that the loop in rename could let old renames
-update the file overwriting newer contents but I realize now that
-rename() itself has the same issue (an old rename could hit in the code
-after a newer rename) so in all cases we must already have the proper
-locking in place.
-
---
- Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
- pgman@candle.pha.pa.us | (610) 359-1001
- + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
- + Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073
-
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-From pgsql-hackers-win32-owner+M201@postgresql.org Tue Nov 11 15:00:07 2003
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-Subject: [pgsql-hackers-win32] CreateProcess vs. CreateThread (was: Committing Resources to Win32)
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-Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:58:23 -0500
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-Thread-Topic: CreateProcess vs. CreateThread (was: Committing Resources to Win32)
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-From: "Merlin Moncure" <merlin.moncure@rcsonline.com>
-To: "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>
-cc: <pgsql-hackers-win32@postgresql.org>
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-Status: OR
-
-Joshua D. Drake wrote:
-> >problem is the ipc-daemon which has a tendency to crash. It seems
-> >slower on writes, but that is strictly anecdotal. With synching off,
-it
-> >hums along happily.
-> >
-> It is slower on rights, connection startup, limited on connections,
-> tcp/ip transfer and you should
-> never run PostgreSQL with sync off unless you are not worried about
-data
-> integrity.
-
-I agree 100%. See notes below.
-
-> >The perceived win32 process management problems are a total red
-herring.
-> >
-> >
-> I disagree... read the other posts. CreateProcess does not scale like
-> CreateThread.
-
-Here is a good resource comparing process creation on Linux and NT (with
-source).
-
-http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-rt7/?t=gr,Redhat=T
-headsMgt
-
-NT can create 150 processes/sec (vs. 300+ on Linux 2.4.2). Even with
-the slower process creation time, most postgres applications will spend
-a tiny fraction of their time inside process creation. Again, this is
-much more relevant to a web server than a database server. Compile and
-run the code supplied in the link if you don't believe me (and I don't
-expect you to :)).
-
-My point about cygwin was to try and illustrate that the performance
-problems wrt postgres on win32 are almost certainly going to be I/O
-based, not process based (as evidenced by the decent performance with
-fsync=off), and this is due to the way files are synched (somebody
-correct me if I'm wrong on this point). I would hate to see you spend a
-bunch of time implementing threading only to find out you are better off
-than with the cygwin version. In case I am wrong, it might be
-informative to fire up a threaded port to see if the end justifies the
-means. The best apples to apples comparison is to run cygwin/peerdirect
-fsync=off vs. linux fsync=off. This is not useful in a production
-sense, but will help tell the relative performance wrt threads vs.
-processes.
-
-My gut tells me the proper path is to:
-1. Implement no frills process based port to win32 based on (as much as
-possible) native sources and native build environment.
-2. Troubleshoot specific performance problems, which will most likely be
-on the I/O side. Fixing them may ultimately lead to api level file
-calls (possibly including asynch I/O) on win32, which may be the only
-way that platform will ever run postgres as good as on the unix side of
-things.
-
-Regards,
-Merlin
-
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